Palm Sunday
  • Paolo
    Posts: 5
    Here is our draft program for Palm Sunday, but it is still subject to change. What do you think of it?
    https://f75a8716-a519-46d8-9317-7eef74a24338.filesusr.com/ugd/86ff01_eaaa9bbd536f4ca296c569aa1cdfb805.pdf
    I have some doubts on singing De profundis (psalm 129/130 ) at communion, but probably it might be one of the few day of the year where it is appropriate.
    Our priest asked us to interpolated hymns during the reading of the gospel of the passion. I know it is not part of the liturgy, but the community might appreciate it. What do you think of this? Aso on Good Friday we are going to sing again many of the hymns of Palm Sunday.
  • contemporaryworship92
    Posts: 315
    to interpolated hymns during the reading of the gospel of the passion


    Readings at a Catholic Mass should never be substituted or supplemented by hymns.
    Thanked by 2trentonjconn tomjaw
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,447
    I think it’s not a substitution but an interpolation which is nevertheless illicit.
  • SponsaChristi
    Posts: 696
    Our priest asked us to interpolated hymns during the reading of the gospel of the passion. I know it is not part of the liturgy, but the community might appreciate it. What do you think of this?

    I think you should say (sing) the black and do the red.

    Isn’t it ironic to engage in liturgical abuse during the reading of the Passion during Mass, don’t you think? A little too ironic.
    Thanked by 2contemporaryworship92 tomjaw
  • contemporaryworship92
    Posts: 315
    interpolated hymns during the reading of the gospel of the passion


    To add: within the context of a Catholic Mass, this is a genuinely crazy idea. This would be a very significant matter of liturgical abuse. The Liturgy of the Word, as with the Liturgy of the Eucharist, is a single cohesive liturgical act that you can not simply interrupt to do something else.

    This idea is better suited to be done outside of Mass. There are many ways you could have a parish prayer service where there is reading from Scripture with music interspersed.
    Thanked by 2trentonjconn tomjaw
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,574
    Nope to the interpolated hymns, which would be a liturgical travesty to put it most charitably. A Scriptural Stations of The Cross with hymns is an OK devotion. But not at any Mass, let alone any Mass during Holy Week.
    Thanked by 4MatthewRoth trentonjconn CHGiffen tomjaw
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,574
    Basically, what people in the pews are expected by the ritual to do during the proclamation of the Passion, as with any other reading of Scripture, is to LISTEN ATTENTIVELY. That's it.

    PS: In 1988, the circular letter Paschale Solemnitatis foreclosed the option of the people as a whole reading part of the passion (at most, you can have lay readers, but a reader is not the congregation as a whole):

    33. The passion narrative occupies a special place. It should be sung or read in the traditional way, that is, by three persons who take the parts of Christ, the narrator and the people. The passion is proclaimed by deacons or priests, or by lay readers. In the latter case, the part of Christ should be reserved to the priest.

    * * *
    It's important to remember that the Holy Week liturgies are *not* re-enactments. The Liturgies of the Word therein are not passion plays, they are not Lutheran Passion services with arias, chorales, and hymns. Even the Eucharistic liturgy in general is not merely a re-presentation of Calvary, but an anamnesis collectively of the Paschal mystery, as well as Pentecost, and a foretaste of the Wedding Banquet of the Lamb.
  • Paolo
    Posts: 5
    Thank you for your competent observations. It definitely seems that to sing during the reading of the Passion is not a good idea! In my defense I can say that we are not going to sing a lot, and not "congregational" hymns. The only piece that is is known by the people is the translation of Bach's choral "O haupt voll blunt", but we are going to sing in polyphony and a cappella, one or maximum two stanzas. The other pieces are also short and polyphonic, and they are done to highlight the moments, as the Stabat Mater, not to substitute or overcome them. They are to be listened to, not to sing with and promote the concentration. Also I think that in far past time, like Middle Ages, the idea to add something to the liturgy was quite common, as monks used to add words and music to the traditional lines of the Gregorian Chant. But I understand that the general principle is questionable, so we are going to mistake in just a more splendid way.
    After your remarks I think we are not going to repeat the singing on Good Friday (the priest was in favor, but we still have not decided), but it is too late to change it on Palm Sunday, as we have already agreed on this.
  • trentonjconn
    Posts: 796
    My two cents: if you want there to be music during the Passion, then sing the passion itself! This is the traditional practice, and the turba can be sung in polyphony by the choir. This way, you elevate the text and heighten the Passion itself in a beautiful and entirely rubrical way. No novelties or non-rubrical innovation necessary!
    Thanked by 6rich_enough Liam CHGiffen Charles tomjaw irishtenor
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,574
    "But I understand that the general principle is questionable, so we are going to mistake in just a more splendid way."

    It's not merely questionable. It's simply not permitted to add any texts whatsoever during the proclamation of the Gospel, that is, the proclamation of the Passion (that is, this year, Matthew 26:14—27:66 - that's the sole text permitted (and required, of course) during the proclamation of the Gospel).

    Doing otherwise is not merely a mistake, but illicit (meaning against the applicable liturgical law), all the more so if done knowingly and with time to reverse course (certainly the case here, as opposed to an illicit thing done spontaneously without foreknowledge).

    (Of course, this same law applies to the liturgy of Good Friday.)

    You did ask (and your instinct to ask is a good one), and you are getting a solid set of responses. The pastor has no authority to require the illicit. (Whether he asserts or exercises a power he lacks under law is not the same thing.) When a music minister is on this terrain, it's never a good place to be.
    Thanked by 3CHGiffen davido Charles
  • Paolo
    Posts: 5
    Well, I am going to discuss the topic with other people involved in the choice and present the objections to choral music during the reading of the Gospel. I understand the good intention of the priest: as the reading of the passion is quite long, he thinks that intersperse it with some meditative music could make the people more attentive to the narration. In fact he asked us to sing at the "change of scene" in the narration, as a kind of pause (Btw our pastor has many qualities, among them he is a good biblist). But your responses are reasonable and correct.
    With regard to the idea of singing alla the Passion, it would require a lot of preparation, surely not this year. I do not know of any church that is able to do it. Maybe they do in Rome, but without polyphony for the turba. Do you know of churches that sing it in the way you suggest?
  • SponsaChristi
    Posts: 696
    With regard to the idea of singing alla the Passion, it would require a lot of preparation, surely not this year. I do not know of any church that is able to do it. Maybe they do in Rome, but without polyphony for the turba. Do you know of churches that sing it in the way you suggest?

    It’s sung using the chant tones for the Gospel by those who are proclaiming it. There’s no polyphony. Here’s a tutorial on the singing the chants of Holy Week, including the Passion. It’s for Year B, so your priest can get started learning it.

    https://youtu.be/KZq-SWpwal8?si=TwuomkW5x5ACsPWx
    It’s time to start teaching priests, deacons, and lectors how to chant the readings and the Gospel.
    I understand the good intention of the priest: as the reading of the passion is quite long, he thinks that intersperse it with some meditative music could make the people more attentive to the narration.

    So he wants to drag out the Gospel even longer by interspersing it with “meditative music”? It won’t have the desired effect he’s hoping for. Also, it’s insulting to the congregation to think that they can’t handle the Mass.

    Thanked by 3CHGiffen Charles irishtenor
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,574
    Paolo:

    My next comment comes from experience in music and liturgical ministries where fussing with the Passion proclamations was a temptation that was given into. After experiencing this a few times, the wisdom gained from the experience was this:

    "The reading of the passion is quite long" - and inserting anything MORE into it just makes it LONGER and harder for more people to maintain attentiveness than not. Because attendance at Mass is obligatory, those people will not necessarily appreciate the intention and its effects.

    Whereas, because attendance at devotions like the Stations of The Cross is entirely voluntary, creativity of insertions in such a devotional context may be better received.
    Thanked by 4probe CHGiffen Charles irishtenor
  • trentonjconn
    Posts: 796
    Do you know of churches that sing it in the way you suggest?


    If my tiny country parish with 100 families can pull it off, yours can too! As Sponsa above mentions, the polyphonic turba is entirely optional. When sung entirely to plainchant, which is the ur-traditional option, it's quite simple to sing. In the Ordinary Form, all you need are two (vested, hopefully) cantors and your celebrant.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Paolo
    Posts: 5
    Thank you for the encouragement, but this year it would be impossible, it could be next year. We are happy that our choir is singing Gregorian chant and classical polyphony in churches belonging to a parish where they were not used to. One step at a time
    Thanked by 2trentonjconn CHGiffen
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