Hymns and translations by A. McDougall
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,538
    I'm looking for the copyright status of the hymns of Alan "A. G." McDougall.

    He passed away in 1965, but I've seen at least one of his translations marked public domain.

    Does anyone have a good sense of why they are PD, and which text(s) this applies to?

    Thanks in advance!
  • His collection, Pange Lingua, was published in 1916.

    https://media.churchmusicassociation.org/pdf/pangelingua.pdf
    Thanked by 2tomjaw CHGiffen
  • PaxMelodious
    Posts: 482
    That depends on what country you are in.

    In most of the world, all his works will be copyright until the end of 1966.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,538
    How about the US? And what is the reasoning?
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,944
    If Pange Lingua was published in 1916, was the copyright renewed? The library of Congress has the renewals. @CHGiffen last time someone asked about copyright I think you gave an informed answer.
  • Pange Lingua was published in London by Burns and Oates. There is no copyright in the book, but I have been told before that copyright is implicit, even when not noted, in Great Britain.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,665
    From :- https://www.gov.uk/copyright my emphases
    You get copyright protection automatically - you do not have to apply or pay a fee. There is not a register of copyright works in the UK.

    You automatically get copyright protection when you create:
    original literary, dramatic, musical and artistic work, including illustration and photography
    original non-literary written work, such as software, web content and databases
    sound and music recordings
    film and television recordings
    broadcasts
    the layout of published editions of written, dramatic and musical works
    The length of copyright depends on the type of work.
    Type of work How long copyright usually lasts
    Written, dramatic, musical and artistic work 70 years after the author’s death

    [EDIT]This law - The Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, was retrospective.
    Thanked by 1Roborgelmeister
  • PaxMelodious
    Posts: 482
    AFAIK, copyright is implicit, even when not noted almost all countries except the USA.
    Thanked by 1Roborgelmeister
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,172
    Copyright is implicit in the US now for works created here, but the rules that apply to older works depend on when they were created and where they were published.
    Thanked by 2Liam rich_enough
  • DCM
    Posts: 93
    https://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-duration.html

    For works first published prior to 1978, the term will vary depending on several factors. To determine the length of copyright protection for a particular work, consult chapter 3 of the Copyright Act (title 17 of the United States Code). More information on the term of copyright can be found in Circular 15a, Duration of Copyright, and Circular 1, Copyright Basics.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,172
    The impression I'm getting now, though I haven't verified this, is that US copyright law respects foreign law in a lot of cases, but only for works after 1923 or so, which would put MacDougall's work in the public domain.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,408
    No doubt the hymns of Alan G. McDougall are all in the public domain. But it should be noted that McDougall's most used hymn text in our time - Christ, Mighty Savior - bears the copyright of Anne LeCroy. Texts in the public domain, if altered, may be copyrighted -- as LeCroy did with Christ, Mighty Savior. But the copyright only covers the new text by LeCroy. If someone were to use McDougall's original text, there would be no copyright issue. Or - the user could make his or her own alterations of McDougall's text and copyright the derivative work.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw CHGiffen
  • Felicia
    Posts: 152
    Public domain now applies to works published before 1930. And, "Public Domain Day" (January 1 of each year) is a gift that keeps giving; next year it will be 1931. Ron Krisman is correct, it only applies to the work as it was originally published, not to any later editions or versions. It also applies to books, films, and printed scores, but not to sound recordings, which are governed by different laws

    Here is the address to the Music Library Association's Copyright page. It's geared to librarians, but the information there may be helpful to church musicians:

    https://copyright.wp.musiclibraryassoc.org/
  • McDougall's most used hymn text in our time - Christ, Mighty Savior

    If someone were to use McDougall's original text, there would be no copyright issue. Or - the user could make his or her own alterations of McDougall's text and copyright the derivative work

    I actually made a version of Christe, lux mundi salus et potestas about 25 years ago, and appended this note: Trans., Alan G. McDougall (1895-1964) pub. in Pange Lingua, London, 1916. Adapt. [RLS]. No copyright claimed. It was part of a project for a hymnal that never saw the light of day.
  • Marc Cerisier
    Posts: 599
    I often wonder how many copyrighted alterations of public domain texts meet the "Threshold of Originality" to genuinely qualify for copyright. Some things I've seen online, for example, suggest that simply updating archaic text, changing a few words, correcting typos, etc... wouldn't be enough. There appears to be no exact formula to figure out if the alteration introduces "at least some minimal degree of creativity." I guess that barring legislative or judicial guidance, each adaptation in question would have to be litigated, but I wouldn't be surprised to find more examples of copyfraud than genuine copyright.

    Somewhat related, I've seen it suggested that there's no way the current Abbey Psalms and Canticles could possibly be copyrighted as there are so few changes from earlier public domain texts when it's all lined up next to each other. A PDF was prepared with a scan of the APC, preceded by the scanner's argument that they were not copyright... I can't remember exactly who shared that at the moment.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,665
    Here is Jeff Ostrowski expressing his distaste for the USCCB machinations :- https://www.ccwatershed.org/2024/11/04/pdf-download-re-copyright-status-of-abbey-psalms-canticles-chart/
    The links I have found to straightforward pdf's have been taken down, but there is :- https://mbreal23.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/pdf-abbey-psalms-and-canticles-maria-odette-sperry-posted-in-2021.pdf
    Thanked by 2Marc Cerisier davido
  • What I was told that thirteen or more textual alterations of a P.D. text qualify to make it an original work. I cannot, however, verify that. That was when I was working on the hymnal that came to naught.
    Thanked by 1Marc Cerisier
  • Marc Cerisier
    Posts: 599
    Thanks, a_f_hawkins, that article from Jeff was combined with a PDF scan in the past and was what I was thinking of. He makes some compelling points...

    Roborgelmeister, maybe that was the comfort level of your editors? I like the idea of focusing on the nature of the change.