St. Ambrose's Hymn to St. Agnes

Kathy

Thomas the teacher wrote in such a way that his students could absorb things well. Previous beginners' manuals were, in his opinion, disorderly. They didn't help the student understand what was of greater or lesser importance. He didn't want them to grow weary. So he went through a great deal of trouble, Summa-sized trouble, to help them.

That same teacher rhymed Latin.

Kathy

Prologue to the Summa Theologiae of Thomas Aquinas
Since the teacher of Catholic truth has not only to instruct those who are advanced, but it also belongs to him to initiate beginners (incipientes)—as the Apostle says, “As to little
ones in Christ, I gave you milk to drink, not meat”—our purpose in this work is to set out
those things which pertain to the Christian religion, in such a way as is suitable for the
initiation of beginners.
For we have observed that newcomers (novitii) to this teaching have been greatly
hampered by the things written by different authors. This is partly on account of the
multiplication of useless questions, articles, and arguments, partly because the things
necessary for such newcomers to know are handed down (traduntur) not according to the
order of learning, but according to what the exposition of the books used to require, or
according to what some occasion for disputing a question would provide, and partly
because the frequent repetition of the same things generated scorn and confusion in the
souls of students (in animis auditorum).
Therefore, eager to avoid these things and others like them, we will attempt, with
confidence in divine help, to set forth the things that pertain to holy teaching, briefly and
plainly, as far as the manner allows.

Kathy

Let's think about how much ancient lore the average Catholic knows.

1. "Singing is praying twice."
2. The O antiphons. Wait, they don't know that. But, they know O Come, O Come, Emanuel.
3. The Te Deum. At least they know Holy God, We Praise Thy Name and God We Praise You.
4. The Marian antiphons, 3 quite brief, and the Veni Creator, all by repetition.
5. Two Creeds and a Gloria
6. Pange Lingua (with TE), O Salutaris, Adoro Te.
7. A few other hymns, all in rhymed English translation.

I'm probably missing a few things. But my point is that there ought to be more. How can that happen? I don't think the answer is non-rhyming English translation of Latin hymns (whether the Latin rhymes or not).

Charles

Kathy, in my diocese, you are spot on!

Maybe a couple additions:
8. Ubi Caritas (oh wait, that's the Hurd version...)
9. Prayer of Saint Francis - Make me a channel of your peace (drats... that's not actually from Saint Francis...)

MatthewRoth

Kathy I don't think that you understand. The students for whom he was writing are beginners in theology, but far, far, far too many people take that to be novices in the faith or people who are catechized but hardly educated. The Thomas Aquinas College

I said:

As I habitually do here I am going to write for future readers as much as anything else. No, the Summa is for beginners in theology, who have already studied the liberal arts. People habitually mistake “beginner” for “novice” and if not “uninitiated” then “neophyte” in the real sense of that word.

The block quotation from Thomas is not a substantive response to that.

That same teacher rhymed Latin.

fine, but everyone did in the period. No one has disputed that rhyme began to take over. What we do dispute is the literary quality of said pieces. Thomas was in particular an excellent author including of hymns, but not everyone was so good!

What we also dispute is whether pieces that don't rhyme in the original Latin need to rhyme in English and whether the rhyming Latin hymns are universally better than the earlier ones that don't; I don't think that anyone actually agrees with this, since the general consensus is that the later hymns are not as good as a rule than the earlier ones (Ambrose, Fortunatus, Paul the Deacon, et al. being the major authors) but if they do, they should make that clear.

all by repetition.

that's your own answer!

I understand that you also have a personal stake in this, but ICEL does not agree. You are for lack of a better word stuck with this. Now, of course, chanting in English might be silly anyway. I know that some people on this forum take that position, some simply because they prefer Latin, some because they think (I think in a more principle way) that chant is tied up too much to Latin (cf. this from Dr. Weaver)

and I think that you have to more seriously reckon with the non-rhyming from ICEL, at the very least where the Latin does not rhyme.

Kathy

Matthew, you are bordering on uncivil discourse here and i hope you will tidy that up as we move forward--although I'm glad you didn't use the word "dunk" in your last comment.

Tell me, what do you understand ICEL's reasoning to be? Do you recall the express reason they gave for why they chose not to rhyme?

MatthewRoth

I’m the one bordering on uncivil? I cannot get a straight answer to my point—and fine, I’ll use it. I didn’t think that it was appropriate to bring up what my parish does or doesn’t do as a gotcha because I’m pretty open about how much we do and what the faithful do with that in terms of participating. And folks can handle nonrhyming Latin texts just fine.

You should ask them! I don’t understand your own complaint because you just dismiss it out of hand.

What is your actual problem? I have asked repeatedly for an elaboration. And you just hand-wave away the point about the Summa, as well as every other point I raise. This is actually a problem, and you’re the uncivil one, but because I have a tone, it gets ignored.

I have said over and over again that your position is fine to hold even if I don’t quite understand it—and even if you do actually need to account for things that don’t rhyme in Latin, because they, by your own reasoning, are inferior to rhyming hymns. And you do need to account for it being the outlier.

You could just ask ICEL or for that matter Fr. Weber. Don’t ask me. I’m not their spokesman! But since they’re not here, and we know they’re serious people, we could maybe say “huh they must have a good reason”. No?

MatthewRoth

I have not investigated the Urban VIII reformed texts in detail as to whether they destroyed previously rhymed Hymns.

Rhyming metrical texts are a higher form of Hymn...

By the way: I don’t think that the Urban hymns made rhyme worse. They are better to sing in every way though.

As to the second, no, I don’t grant the premise. The majority especially of the Roman hymns are much older than the insistence on rhyme. I prefer them. The chant is more tailored to metered texts with an irregular rhyme. That doesn’t diminish the hymns from Aquinas for Corpus Christi, but he is a unique case alongside (attributed anyway) Saint Bernard— and even then, I am happy that Jesu dulcis memoria is sung once a year in the office and is otherwise not strictly necessary.

As I said:

I can see why people prefer to sing rhyming translations, and I don’t even like encouraging that (because I would rather sing in Latin); however, rhyme and meter over meaning and meter leads to translations that are not pleasing to me…and so I can understand the same approach taken even for singing as ICEL & Fr Weber have done.

And

To take two examples: Lucis creator optime and Ave Maris Stella. They don’t rhyme not consistently throughout anyway. Fine you can say that the hymns that do rhyme regularly should rhyme in the same way in English, but that’s not necessarily an argument in favor of the older translations either.

It seems clearly the case that ICEL wished to have fresh translations regardless of the merits or demerits of existing ones, including familiarity, never mind rhyme or other literary characteristics. I can also appreciate that they wanted unity, i.e. everything needed to be not only freshly translated but in the same style; someone could just ask Mgr Wadsworth about the rhyme for that matter. I’m sure that it has come up in the various explanations over the years too if someone wants to search for it.

Kathy

ICEL's stated reason was that something would be lost if the hymns were rhymed.

It wasn't that unrhymed hymns are preferable.

The Fr Weber resources I know of used existing, unrhymed hymns. These were translated and shared by religious communities.

As far as I know, he never said unrhymed hymns as such are preferable.

I think it's fine if someone says that but that doesn't mean others who use unrhymed translations agree with that idea.

Kathy

https://www.detroitcatholic.com/news/bishops-approve-new-hymn-texts-for-the-liturgy-of-the-hours

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