Translations, choices, and complaints
  • TLMlover
    Posts: 75
    Good morning all,

    Recently a parishioner has complained to me that my choice of Responsorial Psalm and /or Introit does not exactly match the translation appearing in our missalette. She wants the text to be exact.

    My questions:

    1. Approximately how many sanctioned English translations of the Propers and Psalms are in existence?

    2. Does the USCCB require or prefer a particular translation?

    3. In the published works of English Propers (Bartlett, Ainsle, Rice, Esguerra, etc.), at times the Introit or Communio in one composer's version uses different texts than the orher composers' versions. Specifically, Bartlett can often be different than Ainsle - not just in the translation, but in the actual choice of Scripture passage. Could anyone tell me why this is?

    4. In the above #3 case, I usually try to choose the version which matches most closely with the missalette - but do I really need to do that? In some cases I prefer the melody of one version over another, even though it is a different Scripture passage than what is listed in our missalette.

    5. Does anybody else go to pains trying to match things for the convenience of the parishioners? Sometimes it is not convenient for rhe musicians to do this.

    6. Other thoughts?

    Thank you!!
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,627
    To point 3 - this was a deliberate response to VII calling for a wider selection of biblical texts. In the case of the Communion antiphon, there is generally a choice, one based on the traditional selection from (usually) a psalm, and the other a phrase from the Gospel of the day. The altar Missal will contain both.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • TLMlover
    Posts: 75
    Thank you, A.F., I have noticed the two Communio choices in the missalette but not for the Introit, except on All Souls, when it gave one choice and said that there were about six other choices.

    Do I always have a choice for Introit?
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,627
    I'm in an English arch diocese. The Missal texts were intended for 'if not sung', and lack psalms to extend the chant, but USCCB's Missal version approves singing them (the rest of the world afaik does not). A good, but not official, guide to the options as seen by DDWDS is found here for Sundays and major feasts.
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,404
    She wants the text to be exact


    As the saying goes, she can wish in one hand and **** in the other and see which fills up first
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,464
    From 2010, for the USA, which has had a USA-specific grandfathering:

    https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/2992/x#Item_54
  • TLMlover
    Posts: 75
    Irish, LOLLLLLLLLLL
  • TLMlover
    Posts: 75
    Liam, thank you! I found a list among the posts. It's all too complicated for me, and I see that it was as well, in 2010.
  • GambaGamba
    Posts: 641
    Hi! This may clear up some of your confusion about the propers other than the psalm and alleluia. https://www.ccwatershed.org/2020/08/23/huge-discovery-not-a-joke-re-gradual-antiphons-vs-missal-antiphons/

    In short, the missal (and missalette) give antiphons for said masses. These were new at V2. For sung masses, the traditional Gregorian chants were somewhat rearranged to fit the new calendar, but, being Gregorian, they are in Latin. Per the GIRM, they remain the first option at all places in the Mass where singing happens.

    In the USA, there is also permission to sing the (new, vernacular) Missal antiphons. No official translation of the Gregorian propers has been promulgated since the 60s, but the translations found in the Solesmes Gregorian Missal did get an imprimatur when Fr. Steven Lewis recently published his book of English propers. Those translations are also used in the Simple English Propers, Source and Summit, and some others I may be forgetting.

    The responsorial psalm needs to follow the lectionary of your country exactly. You cannot sing an American setting in the UK and vice-versa. In the US, some permission is given to continue using older psalms previously approved in the US.


  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,235
    In Canada, these sixteen years have passed during which the CBW III psalms (a version of the Grail) have been tacitly allowed to continue in use for singing, notwithstanding the newer lectionary approved in 2009.

    Is that analogously true in the United States also?
  • TLMlover
    Posts: 75
    Thank you, Gamba. I have read the ccwatershed article but I appreciate the link and I did read it again.

    It appears that our missalette uses the texts of the sung antiphons. They align exactly with at least two or more of my favorite resources for sung English propers.

    However, other resources which I would like to sometimes use, often uses different texts. Example: Ainsle always aligns with the missalette texts. Bartlett sometimes does not.

    I still don't understand why, but I guess I must constantly check the texts against our missalette.

    For the psalms, I like to use Chabanel, the St. Joseph psalter, or The Alternative Psalm Book, which I believe is Weber but not 100% sure. I did not know the psalm texts had to align exactly with the lectionary. Thank you for this info. I know that some of my resources do not align with the missalette texts, but I don't know if they align with the lectionary. I guess I'll have to check every time.

    Very tedious.

    Thank you for the info!
  • GerardH
    Posts: 620
    @TLMlover the Missal antiphons sometimes match the Graduale Romanum, but don't always. In particular, the Missal usually has two options for the Communion antiphon; one from the psalms, one from the gospels. They do not account for the three-year lectionary cycle like the 1974 Graduale does (when possible from authentic repertory).

    Bartlett's Simple English Propers use a translation of the texts from the Graduale Romanum, hence why they don't match the missal
  • TLMlover
    Posts: 75
    Gerard,
    Just what I needed to know, thank you! I noticed the Jogues missal, also, doesn't always align with our missal. They must be using the GR texts also?

    Why would missals (like the one in our parish) NOT use texts from the GR?

    I must be missing something? Do most people know these answers? LOL.

  • GerardH
    Posts: 620
    Why would missals (like the one in our parish) NOT use texts from the GR?
    That is a question for Bugnini et al. The missal antiphons are in the Editio Typica, so that is a decision by Rome, not individual publishers.

    I can't speak to the Jogues missal as I don't know it.
  • TLMlover
    Posts: 75
    Maybe a dumb question, but I'm feeling dumb tonight LOL.

    Are the daily Mass readings on the USCCB website the same as the official Lectionary? If so, the text for the responsorial psalms should match the text on the website, yes?

    Would that apply to the Spanish version also?

    Thanks!
  • The English text on their website matches the published 1997 Lectionary. Psalm setting can match that text, or could use another approved psalter (for now).

    The Spanish on their website matches the Mexican lectionary, but most published settings use an older translation based on the Lectionary from Spain. Both are licit for use in the US (as well as any approved texts form Spanish speaking bishops conferences until we have our own Lectionary, per what I’ve been told by the USCCB).

    My Spanish psalter is the only complete psalter I’m personally aware of outside of Mexico that uses their lectionary texts (can be found on the CRCCM Repertoire Project, with printed copies available in near future).
  • TLMlover
    Posts: 75
    Thank you Marc, I do have a copy of your psalter and find it very useful. Thanks for the information!
  • Don9of11Don9of11
    Posts: 803
    @TLMlover
    Recently a parishioner has complained to me that my choice of Responsorial Psalm and /or Introit does not exactly match the translation appearing in our missalette. She wants the text to be exact.


    I have run into this myself were musicians use text not in the missallette. The individual that approached you has a vaild complaint. The Propers and psalm text to be used should match the resourse the parish has provided to the congregation. If you want to use something different even if it is approved by the USCCB, you need to provide a Liturgy aid for the congregation.

    As an example, the Breaking Bread missallette changed the english text of the benediction hymns that normally grace the last page. Many of us who are used to the traditional text complained. Now, I see an insert was added in the back of the missallette by concerned members of the parish, containing the traditional text, which I welcomed.

    I don't know how important "participation" is in the TLM. But in the NO, it's not only important, it's a prerequiste.

    Many of you object to priest in the NO, who seem to take liberties with the Liturgy, especially the Eucharistic Liturgy. Or some musicians who get "bored" playing the same Mass setting and every 8 or 10 weeks feel it necessary to change it. I get so tired of that, the Mass isn't about you!

    By changing the text of the resource that the congregation is given to use, you are doing the same thing some priest do, the Mass isn't about you. It's about giving everyone the same opportunity to participate, when you introduce different text, you make it about yourself, and quite frankly that's a mistake.
    Thanked by 1PaxMelodious
  • TLMlover
    Posts: 75
    Don,

    I have provided a very complete and easy to use worship guide to the parish since day one. This particular lady has refused to use it since day one.

    I disagree with you saying I've made the Mass about me. The GR texts are allowed for the introit, offertory, and communion. These texts might not necessarily appear in the missalette, which is based on the ICEL translations. That doesn't mean my choosing to use GR texts is selfish. My choice is based on how well the choir can sing a particular proper and which version is the most musically appealing. Nothing wrong with that.

    I have been in many parishes which do not have missalettes in the pews, only hymnals. Would you say that those parishes are selfish?

    No, I completely disagree. People have ears. They can just close their eyes and listen to the word of God being sung (or spoken). This is full and active participation.
    Thanked by 2trentonjconn tomjaw
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,210
    The problem is that for 99% of things and people the text is in their native language or one that they speak well. In fact this is the whole point of the NO.

    I don’t know how I feel about the Benediction text changing other than to say that there is another more obvious solution.

    As to the setting of the Ordinary: I think that actually, yeah, you should have a rotation every eight to ten weeks however that is sliced and diced. We have long gone nine weeks with one Gregorian setting and at the end we want to keel over. Many churches don’t have music in July (and increasingly June these days). But a split of the green Sundays is pretty reasonable. I think it’s worse in more typical parishes for the musicians, and I’m sympathetic: so many people play the same stuff not just at one Mass but twice if not three times (usually running back all or most of one Sunday Mass, Saturday being unique). So long as it isn’t changing weekly on a whim, some sort of division by season and then between late summer and fall/after Epiphany for the green Sundays seems reasonable.

    We change things for benediction too. If my pastor allowed it, we’d do Rorate Caeli for Advent and Ave Verum from Christmas Eve to Candlemas. That’d be a nice break from O Salutaris and would give the congregation nice things to have—I kind of enjoy giving the children who come to Vespers and Benediction a Gregorian earworm.
  • I wouldn't sweat differences in translation. The notion that someone is somehow rendered incapable of participating because of minor differences in syntax or vocabulary is absurd. If the people are singing the text, like with hymns or ordinaries (or the psalm, that may be a legitimate complaint), that's one thing. But the propers, generally? Do people in the pews really even meditate on the antiphons in the first place?
  • TLMlover
    Posts: 75
    A follow up tomy response to Don:

    What about daily Mass? If you are expecting a full set of daily Mass readings in a missalette, you're not going to find it. Propers, maybe. But not all missalettes offer daily propers. People either bring their own or just listen. Simple.

    Also, I have been in parishes where the Sunday Mass readings proclaimed from the Lectionary are not the same as the missalette. You just adjust. No problem.
  • TLMlover
    Posts: 75
    Trenton,

    Yes! Exactly!

    Just a thought... It's just weird that things can be acceptable or not according to what is in the pew. For example, as I mentioned above, the Jogues pew missal seems to be based on GR texts. Breaking Bread is ICEL. So if your parish has Jogues in the pews, people accept it and are happy? And if they have BB in the pews they accept that?

    How does this lead to unity?

    Too many choices, then rules about the choices, then publishing companies with their licensing nonsense, etc., etc., etc.

    Just take out the dumb missalettes and return to the GR and everything is fine.

    Am I missing something here?
  • My experience has been that, usually, the folks who complain about this sort of thing are the ones who dislike traditional music in general and who are therefore looking for things to complain about.
    Thanked by 2Abbysmum tomjaw
  • TLMlover
    Posts: 75
    Right???
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,464
    People who have strong ideas about Things - regardless of placement on the spectrum - are quite capable of complaining. It's a human condition thing, not a one-end-of-the-spectrum thing.
    Thanked by 2AndrewP CHGiffen
  • francis
    Posts: 11,175
    O my goodness golly guys!

    Here is an organ prelude for those of you suffering from diabolical disorientation.
    IMG_1526.jpeg
    640 x 875 - 131K
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • TLMlover
    Posts: 75
    LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
  • TLMlover
    Posts: 75
    I have NODS. Novus Ordo Derangement Syndrome.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,210

    People who have strong ideas about Things - regardless of placement on the spectrum - are quite capable of complaining. It's a human condition thing, not a one-end-of-the-spectrum thing.


    I agree. Some people are anxious or are just truly never happy. I can take some complaints if I know to just ignore them. I actually yelled at someone who was never happy and was unreasonable. She is still a bit in the way, how-ev-er she’s a lot nicer and easier to deal with. I don’t recommend shouting matches! But it worked. And the unreasonable complaints just get filed away (the problem really is not the object of the complaint: if things were different I think that she could be convinced to go along with things).
    Thanked by 2Liam tomjaw
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,464
    Mind you, I think it's OK to have strong ideas about Things - I have quivers full of them myself - but without due appreciation for the graces of human interaction depending on context, any campaign of complaint is most likely to backfire. Not everyone is called by the Spirit to be a prophet, and if you're eager to take up the role, it's usually not a sign of the Spirit's call.
  • I actually yelled at someone who was never happy and was unreasonable.

    And that’s inappropriate and not something to brag about.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,210
    You’ve never yelled at someone who always was demanding and who never had anything nice to say? I’m sorry, it’s also not appropriate to do that after services—some of which I have put on my shoulders to make happen.

    Sponsa, I am not interested in taking your correction on this matter. I even said that I didn’t recommend it. But in my case it worked, and I certainly hope that, regardless of the tone of voice adopted, “you are fundamentally being unreasonable and nothing ever pleases you, you never have anything nice to say, and it’s not appreciated particularly after services” is something that more people need to have in their arsenal.

    But to Liam’s point: it helps if you do things. It doesn’t have to be musical things in the church context, but doing things (and donating…) gets attention. The trouble is that so far big donors tend to have bad opinions on the more important things.
  • You’ve never yelled at someone who always was demanding and who never had anything nice to say?

    No, I haven’t. I work in the hospitality industry and am expected to treat everyone with dignity and respect, regardless of how annoying, demanding, rude, or abusive they are. Have I been tempted to? Multiple times a day, every day M-F, yes, but that kind of behaviour would cost me my job and I don’t want to be homeless, so I have to exercise self control.

    That’s not to say I don’t set boundaries with people and politely, yet assertively refuse them service when they’re abusive and start swearing and threatening me, or throw stuff at me, or have to go into parent mode to break up arguments/fights between customers because someone cut in front of them.

    I deal with trying people by using trauma-based care to the best of my abilities given the circumstances and have compassion for people.
    Thanked by 1PaxMelodious
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,210
    To be honest I don’t think you addressed the substance at all. These people often do not have boundaries and will deflect diplomatic attempts to set them. They don’t mean to not have them. They can learn to have them. I can’t just tell people to go away or call the police like you can.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,464
    Lack of boundaries is a miasma of America's popular and civic culture. I prefer to live in eastern New England where the residue and half-life of a culture of LOTS of boundaries has not yet faded entirely. Fences and hedges make for better (albeit not necessarily good) neighbors and all that.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,210
    Yeah. My nana had some hedges. Not all of the beach houses that we rent do; though more of the semi-permanent houses do (in reality most are all winterized but the smaller it is, the farther from the water it is, the more it’s a permanent living space for someone). If they don’t the lawn is generous for a small private beach community.