Congregation Members Singing Cantor Part in Chepponis Jubilation Mass Gloria
  • discenaj
    Posts: 19
    Hello -- have other choir directors encountered this ? Since they are pretty familiar with it, a number of our congregants have started singing the cantor / soloist parts of the Chepponis Gloria from his Mass of Jubilation. If we have a cantor up front, the congregation will respect that, and let them sing, but when I'm "default cantor," singing from the organ, they join right in ! I'm honestly not sure how to respond --- certainly, we want to encourage congregational singing, but the part was written / designated for a cantor / soloist --- should I put a notice in our Worship Aid: "Cantor only, please, for the verses" ? Should I stop the piece, and ask those singing the verses to please sign up as cantors after Mass ? Simply ignore it ? (That last one is tough to do !) --- Any suggestions ?? Thanks all ---

  • Liam
    Posts: 5,464
    I'd ignore it. Unless the cantor part functions like an aria in classical Mass settings, the role of a cantor part in contemporary (meaning, written in our own own time) settings of the Gloria is merely a concession to an assumed unwillingness on the part of a congregation to sing, at least for a period of time. If the assumption proves to be wrong ... don't put a stop sign in the congregation's way.

    The lovely thing, eventually, is that if and when enough PIPs take up singing the "cantor part", you can do away with the repeating the "refrain"; having a refrain Gloria is more like having training wheels that can be dropped once a congregation is sufficiently familiar with the Gloria.
    Thanked by 4probe PaxMelodious davido discenaj
  • Musicguy57
    Posts: 22
    Let them sing. It is a great thing that people want to participate in song.
    Thanked by 1discenaj
  • PaxMelodious
    Posts: 469
    So you are saying that at times when you don't have a cantor, the congregation step up and fill in?

    Not seeing the problem. They are letting you focus on doing your job.
    Thanked by 1discenaj
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,486


    I had thought that 'refrain Glorias' had been banned long ago!
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,464
    No, they are not banned.

    Refrains can have a practical purpose, albeit ideally temporary.
    Thanked by 1discenaj
  • discenaj
    Posts: 19
    Thanks Liam --- not sure if we can call verse-refrain Glorias a product of congregational unwillingness to sing ? They are certainly singing the refrain. The refrain Glorias are more of a "ready-to-sing, right out of the box" type of work --- a quick way to add a congregational setting of the Gloria. They require minimal cong prep, certainly less than the meticulous work required for the through-composed Glorias --- in addition, the cantor part is likely more complicated, so requires a solo singer. Has your cong had a chance to sing the Jubilation Mass yet ? It's really designed harmonically for each verse to lead into the big refrain --- removing the inner refrains would sound pretty awkward. Finally, part of the appeal of the refrain Glorias is their call-and-response nature in a jubilant setting. Our only other spots for call-and-response, the psalm and the Agnus Dei, are shorter, more prayerful settings.
  • discenaj
    Posts: 19
    Thanks PaxMelodious ---

    "So you are saying that at times when you don't have a cantor, the congregation step up and fill in? Not seeing the problem......."

    LOL ! If that were only the case ! No, unfortunately, the only time I hear them participating any more than usual is when I'm cantoring the Jubilation Gloria.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,464
    I've only looked at the score for the Jubilation Mass. I generally would not recommend a Gloria in the repertoire that is not designed for a congregation to ultimately sing it through. After decades of experiencing refrain-based Glorias, I think the only practical justification for the refrain structure is as temporary training wheels.
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  • CatholicZ09
    Posts: 329
    We use this Gloria and just have the congregation come in from the top—no intonation or anything. We go back to the refrain after each “verse” so as to keep the musical structure of Chepponis’ setting in tact, but everyone is encouraged to sing the piece in its entirety.

    We rarely use it since our pastor likes through-composed Glorias for the most part, but he concedes on this setting because the people really sing it.

    It just seems odd to have a repertoire of through-composed Glorias where everyone sings the entire piece and then have these “refrain” Glorias where the congregation is discouraged from singing. They should be encouraged to sing any setting of the Gloria.
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  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,913
    ;-) I first read that as im Takt, which might fit too.
  • PaxMelodious
    Posts: 469
    LOL ! If that were only the case ! No, unfortunately, the only time I hear them participating any more than usual is when I'm cantoring the Jubilation Gloria.


    I've been trying to find a nice way of saying this, and failing :-(

    But ahhh, I wonder what they are trying to tell you about that particular piece. Hopefully it's that they really like it.
    Thanked by 1discenaj
  • Fr. Jim Chepponis
    Posts: 222
    An interesting discussion!
    Thanked by 1discenaj
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