Gloria Patri at Mass, In English
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,235
    At Mass in the OF (cf. OCM Praen. #1 or GS praen. #19) it's possible to use the Gloria Patri at the end of a processional chant (unless ex versu et antiphonae iteratione cantum nimis protrahi :-)).

    If singing in English, however, I'm unable to find an "official translation" of these verses, since there is none for the Graduals and it seems not to be mentioned in the GIRM at all. So do we sing "Glory be" and "world without end" as when reciting the Rosary, or must it be "Glory to" and "will be forever" like in the LotH? And maybe even "Holy Ghost"?

    I would like the schola to memorize these, to minimize page turning. But what text? This is a small question but not an idle one.

  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,524
    I think the LOH ending is proper to the LOH only, so you needn't worry about that. And "Spirit" is used in doxological formulations in the Missal, so that would make more sense than "Ghost," I think.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,176
    It in some ways depends on which book of English propers your using. SEP, Lumen Christi, and The Proper of the Mass for Sundays & Solemnities all use the traditional Gloria Patri translation; Palmer-Burgess also uses Holy Ghost.
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,235
    Well, that's arguable, @Salieri, especially when reading the doxology in place, straight out of the book. But I don't care to ask for two versions (four if you count the processional and office tones separately) memorized, with consequent confusion.

    But I'll settle on Fr Weber's version, rather than Burgess'n'Palmer, for Kathy's reasons and yours (since more likely to be chanting from The Proper Of The Mass when doxology is used). The other book we use is By Flowing Waters, which has "Give glory... will be forever. Amen."
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,524
    Interestingly, the traddie expression Holy Ghost is Germanic in origin, and the post VII expression Holy Spirit is latinate. I would have expected the reverse.
  • The Ordinariate Use's use is 'Glory be... to the Holy Ghost... world without end...'. Of course, this is official only for the Ordinariate. The St Meinrad 'use' is 'Glory to... the Holy Spirit.. as always before, so now and evermore...'. (I always thought that the '... as always before, so now and evermore...' was kind of nice.) It seems to me that for the OF, since there is no 'official' translation of any of the propers, one is at liberty to use that of his choice. Personally, I've always thought that 'Glory to...' instead of 'Glory be to...' sounded rather artless, graceless, clumsy, clunky, and dumb. As for 'Ghost', it seems that certain types went with an ax after all Anglo-Saxon or Germanic sourced words in favour of Latinate ones, though traditional English usage had always leant to 'Ghost'. 'Ghost', of course, means 'Spirit', but not in the minds of certain frown-minded types who like to impose their idiocy and just plain ignorance on everyone else - and weedle themselves into positions of influence so that they can do so.
  • Steve CollinsSteve Collins
    Posts: 1,014
    This is my biggest worry about the English translation of the Propers: if, indeed, they become in vogue again, will ICEL take charge of them, and force us to use ONLY their translation - of both the Antiphon/Verse AND the Doxology. IMO, this would be continued micromanaging.

    When Catholics recite the "Glory be" in public prayer, it IS the one Jackson has stated as official for the Ordinariates. It is also the one that was printed on the right hand page of all the Latin/English personal Missals for over a century. Again, IMO, there is no need whatsoever to force us to use the Protestant "Rite II" translation! And I will fight against it to the death!
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,524
    Persons of immediate post VII influence tended to favor Germanic terms in English.
  • We use the St. Meinrad version—I quite like it.

    Marc
  • ClemensRomanusClemensRomanus
    Posts: 1,023
    We use the LoTH version (which our pastor views as official since the Hours may be combined with Mass).
  • I've been looking for the St Meinrad version of the Gloria Patri/Glory Be in English, can anyone please post a link?
  • Glory to the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.
    As always before,
    so now and evermore. Amen!
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,464
    I wonder if any liturgical authority ever blessed the more literal translation " . . . unto ages of ages".
  • I think there is a little liberty in this situation, though I wouldn't go for "ghost" which I think is an inferior translation that has crossed into self-conscious trad affectation/identitarian/"we're different and trad" thing and should be given up for those reasons.
    Thanked by 2hilluminar Liam
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,210
    Thumbs down.
  • "Holy Ghost" is used in the Douay-Rheims/Challoner bible, which a lot of us read. So it could just be that people adopt that because that's what they are used to reading. I think that's the case for myself (I probably say both in private prayer when praying in English).

    But some people have reasons, too. For instance, a priest friend of mine always argued for "Ghost" because a ghost is a person, whereas the English word spirit has all kinds of other connotations. So he preferred "Ghost" in order to promote a proper trinitarian theology.
  • Yes, a ghost is a person (who has died and now haunts a house somewhere). I've heard many reasons, but I think they're largely post-hoc and (I can grant exceptions) it's more motivated by a desire to signal a subcultural identity. And things like that, where they have reference to some extra-small-t tradition, are continued to the detriment of big T issues.
  • fcbfcb
    Posts: 389
    So he preferred "Ghost" in order to promote a proper trinitarian theology.


    This strikes me as some serious retconning. The Holy Spirit is not a person in the sense that a human beings (or their ghost) is a person--i.e. possessing an independent intellect and will--and thinking it is will get your Trinitarian theology into some serious trouble. Talking about the Holy Ghost is like wearing spats or using a monocle--i.e. it suggests you're unserious (I suppose if it's a habit you picked up from reading that Douay Bible I might give you a pass, but then my question would be, "Why read the Douay Bible?").
    Thanked by 1Chant_Supremacist
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,627
    If like me you have only one eye any use for reading, and that only with aid for close focus, a light very portable monocle can be extremely handy (if you have mastered the art of keeping it in place).
  • Point taken about the theology; and I won’t defend it on those grounds. But it’s not bad in the way baptism in the name of the creator, redeemer, and sanctifier is bad. It’s just old fashioned.

    I think plenty of people refer to the Holy Ghost when praying or discussing religious ideas, and I fail to see how that makes them unserious. It might be coded as “trad,” but I’m not even sure that’s true. It has been a perfectly respectable English usage for centuries among Catholics and Protestants alike; I don’t see how it can be considered “faulty” or “antiquated.”

    Perhaps the Douay bible is not the most readable (still worth a look!), but I also like the Knox translation, which also uses “Holy Ghost.”
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen davido
  • davido
    Posts: 1,150
    If the Holy Ghost isn’t a person in the way that a human being is not a person, what good is the concept of person?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,090
    If "Spiritus" is good enough in Latin, I can hardly think "Spirit" isn't good enough in ze English.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,090
    To respond to @rebeccasteinke , here's a link to an example:
    https://www.saintmeinrad.org/media/1493/partsettings.pdf#page=15

    (15th page of the PDF file, numbered as page 13 in the document)
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,210
    Because we can profit from Germanic and Latin roots in alternation. I like that “the Holy Ghost” is always that, but sometimes “Spiritus Domini” (in English too) might not be the Spirit.
  • TCJ
    Posts: 1,034
    Having the option of using Holy Ghost gives more variety in hymns.