Legitimate Website?
  • Hello all,

    I have for over a year now tried to purchase the 1957 Mass and Vespers from this website: https://www.liberum-veto.com/product-page/mass-and-vespers-solesmes-abbey-1957

    What is so odd is that every time I have tried to buy it, it says they aren’t accepting online payments and to contact them at the moment. I’ve sent several emails to no avail. Their phone number goes straight to what seems like a hotel message inbox. The phone number is a number in Florida but their address is in Wyoming. The address seems to have a bunch of sketchy LLCs and shell companies. Should I even keep trying to get in contact with them?

    Ps. If you know anywhere I can legitimately purchase a Mass and vespers let me know!
  • Our schola director has bought the book shown on that website, so I can attest that it really exists in print. The website he linked me to is this one. Hopefully that website will work for you.

    I will warn you though, the reprint is even more of a brick than the Liber Usualis, and not in a good way. I borrowed our director's copy for a few weeks to give it a try. The sheer amount that Solesmes managed to squeeze into the book is great, but the scale of the reprint in impractical. It is a smaller trim size than the Liber Usualis, making the chant super small, and straining on the eyes. The paper is also not quite as thin as the Liber, so the book is really thick.

    The dimensions are given as: 11.5cm x 16.50cm x 7cm

    2290 pages is hard to make ergonomic no matter how you slice it, but perhaps if the trim size was a bit bigger than the Liber, not smaller, and thinner paper used, it could become a real successful seller with a bit of publicity marketing.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • I would also suggest to the publisher that perhaps multiple volumes would do well in this case, as do most publishers who publish the Breviary, for example. I think there is a legitimate need for a book like this, for sure, but practicality and usability are definitely factors.
    Thanked by 1irishtenor
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,090
    Is there a real need to put all of that in one book?

    By the way, we do offer it as a download:
    https://media.churchmusicassociation.org/books/massandvespers.pdf
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,908
    I would still prefer a Graduale and a Vesperale. I can't imagine why they need to be combined into one book.
    Thanked by 1StimsonInRehab
  • I agree, they really don't need to be. The English and other Missal bits are a nice touch to the simple contents of the Liber Brevior, but yes, two books makes more sense. I'd also say perhaps all the Ad Libitum chants in a third book, along with English hymns and whatnot, because a lot of those I might want to use for both Mass and Vespers.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,210
    Is there a real need to put all of that in one book?


    Yes; the French 1960’d up reprint from Le Barroux is very popular. There are days where I would prefer such a thing for pre-55. It has the advantage of having the orations of the full Liber and more than the Brevior; having two books to then sing Vespers is annoying, and the Brevior is poorly organized with a lot of junk (the simplified chants are a waste of space, Vespers without the proper parts makes no sense).

    I think that if you don’t see why people want it, it’s simply not for you, but the gap that it filled does seem pretty obvious. :|

    Well there would be no English hymns at Vespers.
  • We use English Hymns at Vespers every Sunday for the procession of the priest and servers, plus a recessional on feast days. With Vespers itself being completely liturgical Latin chant, the devotional English hymnody adds some nice variety. And we don't do organ for Vespers both because if I play the organ there will not be enough strong singers leading in the pews, and because I think it is better for people to be confident singing Vespers acapella, that way when we do have Vespers accompanied it is a festive treat, not a crutch that they have grown up on.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,210
    Jeff Ostrowski did that in LA, and it’s simply too much music. It is not especially Roman either.

    But the organ isn’t a festive treat. I mean, it can be, but it’s a voice of its own. I understand that you need strong singers, but acting as if it’s only a crutch is kind of odd. We only drop the organ at Tenebrae, and it mostly goes well: there’s no helping the canticle of Habukuk though unless I reset the pitch).

    Point being, you can have your English hymns, if you want, but it’s a terrible thing to include in a book for Vespers. You already have a million options for a hymnal or handout or whatever.
  • No, I am not saying that English hymns should be included in a book for Vespers. The Vesperale should have the whole of the Office chants and nothing but the Office chants. What I am saying is that English hymns should be in a book with the ad libitum chants meant to be sung by the congregation (Attende Domine, Te Deum, all the Benediction chants; the sort of stuff included in the Parish Book of chant). The reason being, that these hymns and chants are utilized (by our parish at least) at both Mass and Vespers. So for Mass you can use your Graduale plus your book of extra chants+hymns. For Vespers you can use your Vesperale plus your book of chants+hymns. That is what I am saying, because it makes most sense for the music I envision using. For Mass polyphony you'd use a separate book/binder, and for Vespers I would seldom (if ever) use polyphony.

    Regarding singing English hymns during processions at Vespers, and our choice to chant Vespers a cappella, I will have to respectfully disagree. I am not saying that the organ is only a crutch, just that (at least for some congregations) it can become one if it is used to accompany all the time. The organ is a beautiful tool for coloring the chants and adding a festive taste, but I don't wish for people at our parish to get the idea that accompaniment is crucial to chant itself.

    I think, Matthew, that most of our differences are because of a different liturgical culture. Yes, we both favor the traditional Mass, the practice of Sunday Vespers at a parish level, singing full propers, and so many other things; but even within all that it seems we fall on opposite ends of the same spectrum. Moving away from morals, love of tradition, and so many other points on which we agree, the difference is a cultural one. Your ideas are strongly influenced by the traditional French ways of doing things. You love the French traditions: the Institute of Christ the King, the Solesmes method, extensive use of the organ. That is not the culture in my family or in my parish. We are an FSSP parish, our pastor is not French, and neither am I. We are more German. I love the organ, but I don't want to use it at Mass as the French do. They are quite welcome to, and I shan't stop them, but it is not what we do. I can sing the music at Mass mostly a cappella, and still let the organ have its "own voice" by using it to play a Bach piece. I say all this, not to strike up and argument; quite the opposite. I've found we often disagree on many small things, but with the utmost charity, I propose that these differences arise from valid cultural variations within the spectrum of traditional Catholic Liturgy.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,210

    I'd also say perhaps all the Ad Libitum chants in a third book, along with English hymns and whatnot, because a lot of those I might want to use for both Mass and Vespers.


    The actual Vesperale had the requisite chants from the full antiphonal. The edition which I am working on will have a selection as well.

    But there is a plethora of resources if you need English on top of that, and you don’t want to mix English with Latin except if you make it yourself.

    It’s Roman to not have vernacular hymns. It has nothing to do with the French or the Institute. They didn’t even teach me Vespers first!

    A Bach prelude or postlude is an addition not something integral. Mahrt said all of this better than I could. It’s too bad that people seem to have already forgotten his wisdom.

    I don’t care about the organ accompaniment exactly. I think that it is helpful and not only as a crutch, but what I care about is people getting the wrong idea. That it’s just a treat is just bizarre even if you go more minimalist. Solesmes didn’t and still doesn’t use it for Lent. Mocquereau preferred that, but Dom Claire still found the organ to be at worst a necessary evil. And if you do anything more complex than green Sundays you probably need the organ more.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,210
    Also if I may:

    I prefer the propers a capella in part because they’re a pain to rehearse with the organist.

    With the ordinary, it takes way too much time to learn chant a capella that the people are invited to sing, other than the simplest chants (and they can’t be guided along faster…). By the time that they do, you’ve changed seasons. But I like the sound of accompanied propers quite a bit; in the right circumstances we would do them from time to time.

    What I don’t have a lot of time for, and I’m not saying that you’re doing this here or elsewhere, (I respond with future readers in mind quite a bit) is the idea that the organ is at best superfluous; it’s snobbish and more than a bit grating.

    But again my experience is that people will surprise you with what they can do, even if the organ is used as support on a regular basis. It’s mostly (but not for every single ordinary I grant) not a problem if the organ breaks down at this point.