Hate to break it to you, friend, that is not doctored. I’ll fully grant that the interpretation and tempo leave something to be desired in this case, but that’s very real. In his enthusiasm he speeds up and becomes uneven for a few bars, but it’s not messed with in post (perhaps to his embarrassment, actually).

And if you can’t wrap your mind around playing that fast, wait until you meet Cameron Carpenter, though you had best be sitting down…

https://youtu.be/wRc-EzKxGWk?si=f212QPt_K0GgxQag

So what say you to the following video, particularly the Bach "Gigue" fugue beginning at 18:26?

https://www.youtube.com/live/NhyJIgLsrlU?si=k4QwZagB9SYNXEZM

What you’re utterly failing to grasp is that the video is not accelerated. Cameron really performs these pieces that fast. He is one of the most famous organists in the entire world and has literally concertized at all the largest venues in the entire world, both as a soloist and in front of just about every major orchestra. Hundreds of thousands of people (if not literally millions at this point) have seen him perform live in the last decade. He performs these show pieces in front of everyone. That means that there are literally countless thousands of people that could cry foul if he were posting fake videos… but they don’t. Do you know why? Because he really plays like that! They’ve seen it live with their own eyes and ears. …which is precisely why he has so much renown.

My friend, at this point I have to encourage you to quit while you’re ahead. It’s pretty bold for someone to be lobbing insults saying that I don’t know the first thing about organ, when here you are saying you’ve never even heard of the Gigue fugue—one of the more famous pieces of repertoire to ever be written—and calling world-famous organists hacks and liars.

I’ve tried to make good-faith rebuttals and keep the humor as light as I can from my side, but at this point (well, let’s be honest: long before now) it’s becoming rather sad indeed. You simply need to face the music: there are organists out there who are highly skilled and capable of playing at very quick speeds. You don’t have to agree with interpretation; you don’t have to like their style. But you do have to accept that they are real. They exist. They have thousands of other organists who scrutinize them and wag their tongues in favor or against (Carpenter is particularly polarizing) but no one can deny the simple reality that the playing is real. There are simply too many witnesses, and too many people adequately trained and skilled themselves to successfully trick us all. (Furthermore, you then run the risk of accusing the thousands of witnesses of being liars too, or at least idiots, which they are not.) Still more: in the vast majority of cases, there are other organists who can accomplish the same feats and have also done so publicly… which is precisely why no one bats an eye at certain recordings. They aren’t unique. They aren’t artificially fast. They are, in fact, quite quotidian in that sense.

So now it’s time for you to turn your scrutiny inward and focus on your own playing and making a positive offering, rather than raging against the things put out by yes: better organists than you, who are perfectly capable of feats of music making that you are not. Perfect your own (self-described superior!) interpretations, make your own recordings (including of live playing environments which you so highly cherish–and rightly so) and let the results speak for themselves. And when they do, your success will be great, and we will laud you for it too, just as we laud other excellent performers. But until your resume and repertoire have much to show, may I politely suggest that your criticisms and accusations be toned down a bit. And pray God that your videos are not subjected to the same scathing scrutiny in the meantime.

*chef’s kiss*

Vigorous, but certainly not accelerated!

I believe everyone is just being trolled here.

For what it's worth, Koopman's recording(s) of BWV 565 are listed on several albums in the Discogs database, and instead of taking 6:10 for the piece, nearly all of them are eight minutes or longer. One CD listed had a version at 7:39. So I agree with weikangcai that the video probably does not represent the performance accurately.

The YouTube channel with the 6:10 video is based in Italy, and the video appears to be copied from a 1992 performance in Japan. I expect Koopman and his recording labels (Teldec, DG, etc.) had nothing to do with the YouTube video.

As a speculation, I wonder if the change in speed might be due to some mistake in the process of converting the video recording from one format to another.

To chonak
(Regarding Koopmans BWV 565) It's not a mistake of converting. you can see the page turner is walking/turning pages in the right speed. (0:45 2:18 3:36 etc)
So he fully anticipates the future acceleration of the video by doing things slowly

If it's a mistake of video processing, and the page turner is not aware and walks/turns pages normally at the scene, in the wrongly processed video, he should be walking/turning pages very fast.


My point is very clear: pure premeditated cheating.

To AnimaVocis
Aren't you vain by attacking me and defending a cheater?

Also for "Organists" Koopman/Doeselaar
playing 50% faster than Bach himself and head-banging are vain

I don't want to quarrel any more, everything is so clear. Fans of Koopman/Doeselaar don't read my posts and evade my questions.

Koopman fans can never answer: if my videos are accelerated by 50%, are they real?

Also wrongly processed video (changing fps) will lead to audio pitch changes. video plays faster, audio pitch becomes higher.
changing video playback speed without changing audio pitch while keeping audio quality is a very deliberate action. (changing playback speed in youtube will ruin audio quality)
I don't know how others do this. if I want to do this, I will:
1. extract the audio from the video, use Time and Pitch -> Stretch and Pitch (process) in Adobe Audition to speed it up. only professional audio processing softwares can speed up audio without losing quality. Even on my modern PC, it takes 1min30s to process a 6min audio.
2. In Adobe Premiere, speed up the video (which also changes the pitch of the audio),
3. insert the sped-up audio from Adobe Audition into Adobe Premiere

No one will do this by accident. one can assume back in 1992 it was even more complicated.

No one will slow down his videos, errors and speed inconsistencies become more obvious in a slowed-down audio/video. for the same reason: sped-up videos cover mistakes and speed inconsistencies.

So I'm going to enter this discussion obliquely and on a tangent line...

When I was in high school, I thought performances like Koopman's were the gold standard. He had a reputation for being the specialist par excellence, at least from the sources I found when essentially self-educating online (not recommended, but I think I came out in one piece), so I assumed that his tempi etc. were above reproach, and that the *only* reason someone *wouldn't* play that fast was because they *couldn't*.

It took several professors and outstanding mentors to point out to me that speeding up, not necessarily a recording, but the performance tempo could often be used as a way to gloss over imprecision and even sloppiness, and to point out to me the beauty of a stately, restrained, extremely compelling & elegant interpretation of the piece.

Velocity was never a natural issue with my playing -- it came relatively easily. I had to learn to relax tempi, not to push them.

Speed is not necessarily = skill, and certainly not = musicianship / musicality.

It can be dazzling as a virtuosic spectacle, but I've revisited Koopman's interpretation of certain pieces that have become beloved to me over the years, that I really took the time to get recital polished, and it hurts a bit to hear some of my favorite moments rushed through.

And it certainly has been satisfying by this road to come to the place where, for a few pieces at least, my interpretation is actually my favorite -- not because I think I'm a better player than the others who have attempted it (I'm not at all), but because approaching the music with a sense of reverence, restraint, and care for detail means that one's own performance is bringing out the character and content of a piece in a way that resonates with one's own inner experience of the piece and its potential and meaning -- i.e., where impression meets expression.

And that experience is entirely due to great teachers who taught me to love to pull the tempo back and take care to let my ear develop discernment and particularity.

But, I suppose unlike OP, I have a great respect for Koopman's work, even if I no longer think of it as the gold standard. I find him a product of his time, reacting to the glacial tempi of a prior generation's interpretation of Bach with the strong conviction that this music speaks differently when it is fiery and energetic. There's room for that in the toolbox, too.

I found another copy of the Koopman performance on the net: in fact, a recording of the whole recital, at
https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1qW411g75R/

The recital was recorded December 1, 1992, at the Tokyo Metropolitan Theatre, and it looks like it was broadcast on television in Japan. At the time, Nippon TV commonly presented concerts from that theatre, so perhaps that TV company made the original video.

In addition to the Toccata and Fugue in d minor, at 1:22:26, the program also includes BWV 572, called the "Fantasia in G" or the "Pièce d'orgue", presented impossibly fast, starting at 1:04:30.

The broadcast probably presented the recital at its original speed, out of respect for Japan's classical music viewers, who are attentive about the quality of performances. However, the video on Bilibili is entirely sped up, and fits barely within 90 minutes. The version on Bilibili is dated 2018.

With the limited information available so far, we can say that the speed-up happened between 1992 and 2018; but we don't know who did it or why. Perhaps someone sped up the video because he thought the music would be more appealing that way. Perhaps it was a mistake of some sort.

In any case, this forum is not the place to accuse anyone of dishonest behavior: the "forum discussion guidelines" make that clear enough.

Adam Neeley has a fascinating deep dive on the ethics of this kind of fake virtuosity, mostly in reference to electric guitar, but the issues are the same.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1QEV9euGAg

@ServiamScores Thanks for the demo! I found this whole discussion odd because I can play technical exercises on my parish's vintage organ faster than the Koopman, so I have a hard time understanding how the instrument was the limiting factor. Do I like it for stylistic reasons? Meh, I could take it or leave it. I'm still relatively new to the organ, so I'm not savvy when it comes to rep. Does the head-banging make sense? People are weird and idiosyncratic. I've seen some weird stuff in live performances.

While there are definitely some altered performance recordings out there, a few good points were made:

1. Virtuousity doesn't equate cheating. There will always be someone better than us. It is with a humble heart that we should accept that and learn from those greater than us. We don't have to like or agree with their interpretation, but we should admire their skill for what it is.

2. Performers can't be held responsible if someone else speeds up their recordings or somehow alters them, especially if it happens without their blessing or knowledge. In the absence of evidence otherwise, we should be giving them the benefit of the doubt.

3. It's good to scrutinize things in this day and age, especially with AI tools becoming so prevalent, but at the end of the day we musicians have to stick together lol. That means having a bit of grace. I think sometimes about Rush E (yes, you may collectively groan at the reference - I have a kid obsessed with it). It was written as a stunt/gang/meme, and never intended for a human to play. That being said, some humans have achieved playing it, and it has tempted countless kids to sit down at a piano and try to play. And some of those kids have kept playing, discovering a love for music.

This whole discussion hasn't been fruitless. I've learned some repertoire stuff that I didn't know before and had a chance to explore it a bit.

Also, Gigues are notoriously fast (there was a comment above complaining about the speed). For piano at least, many of them are played presto-ish.

To ServiamScores
Your performance of BWV 578 is all messed up, I can play even faster at that quality. Faulty performance doen't prove anything. Also add Koopman/Doeselaar's head-banging see if you can stay focused

To irishtenor
I apologize, ServiamScores played both fast and flawlessly, and give us a perfect idea of how fast organ can be played

Sure China has the best organists. and I'm not talking about myself

watch how this "Beutiful lady" organist (this is her account name translated into English) plays BWV 578. Pay attention to the pedaling starting from 3:13 (she changed the notes for whatever reason)
https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1Zq4y1y7MF/
Bach wouldn't even dream of writing such a passage. (16th notes with feet crossing only happen in pedal solos) Can Koopman match her dexterity? and by following forum rules, I wouldn't accuse her of cheating.

Enough of arguing, Chinese organists (excepts me) are much more skillful than all of you.
One can lie and cheat but forum rule doesn't allow to accuse others of cheating (even he's not a forum member). How great is your love for Christ!
Even pagans are more righteous than you bunch of hypocrites! I'm leaving this forum forever.

what a dumpster fire

To ServiamScores
Your performance of BWV 578 is all messed up, I can play even faster at that quality. Faulty performance doen't prove anything.

Oh wonderful! Please do. I think I can safely speak for everyone when I say, we would all love to see it. (Better not use the Trost, though, since that seems to be a really limiting factor in your interpretations.)

Can y'all tell me.... does this seem sped up?

https://youtu.be/nkdwbbA_JFs?si=Wmv_kcf_Wz2mn4fl

Can y'all tell me.... does this seem sped up?

Only if you put it at x2 speed.

But then again, it's hard to tell if it's real because you can't see if he's shaking his head too fast.

Although weikangcai is right to observe that the youtube videos he mentioned appear to be accelerated, he has not acknowledged some basic points:

• No one has presented any evidence that Koopman is responsible for making the accelerated videos or posting them on any website.
• In 1992, when the concert was performed, websites did not exist yet: the "world-wide web" was started in 1993.
• The accelerated videos appeared on the internet more than 20 years after the concert.
• It is therefore impossible that the concert was performed with the intention of making accelerated internet videos.

Moreover, there are other videos on the net presenting Koopman playing the same piece in a duration that is more normal:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1kX8T-CG7I&t=1543s [7:50]
https://youtu.be/gUQQY_WjpC4?si=gvW4WFcSWqsZ9pgv [7:39]
https://youtu.be/ng4Zbr6AeOQ?si=K0_iXfWDfyfJyU5c [8:20]
https://youtu.be/UEBl9oC5iBs?si=PprK8zrwdBR2Wi6C [8:04] (posted by the NAXOS recording company)

It appears, then, that weikangcai was listening to poor-quality videos, and forming rash suspicions based on them.

There are so many poor-quality music videos on the internet: when they misrepresent performances, they violate the rights of the performers.

Erroneous rash judgments are also a real problem: not only do they provoke useless anger and quarreling, they even mislead the person who believes them.

I will close this thread. If anyone thinks he has valuable comments to add, please contact me, and I might re-open it.