Standard Pronunciation Guide when singing in English
  • SponsaChristi
    Posts: 606
    What is the standard for English pronunciation when singing? In case it matters, in Canada. I hate singing in English outside of choirs because I get the worst analysis paralysis with words that have multiple pronunciations.
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,193
    Is there one?
    A lot is context-specific, as in the Anglican Is-ray-el, or in historical pronunciations. English speakers tend to assume that they can sing in English, yet there are whole books written on English diction, IN ENGLISH (this is the old standard, but a lot has changed in the language in 75 years). I'm eager for other answers, particularly if there are Church-based standards as for Latin. (Is it E-ville or E-vull?)
  • oh boy this is a can of worms. We have been studying that question specifically because of chant for years, and there is not really an easy answer. Often times, what we have discovered is, you have to take into consideration the general pronunciation + context + fidelity to music + the way the music hits a word. In some cases its better to adapt the word to the music, in other cases its better to adapt the music to the word. But my honest opinion is that you are never going to make everyone happy, pronunciation can be so different even within a single country.
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  • The one that seems to always come up with us is whether "the" should be "thuh" or "thee". I have always decided based on how it sounds against the adjacent words, meaning sometimes it varies within the same hymn. I could probably use guidance on English singing pronunciation too.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,464
    Well, in practice, a lot of it has to do with experience/knowledge/intuition of how certain English vowels/diphthongs shade pitch (particularly flattening, esp in descent) - which varies according to dialect, as it were; a choral director may then engage in open vowel surgery with the choristers, and repeat as necessary. (In the USA, at least most native eastern New Englanders are somewhat practiced or at least familiar with non-rhoticism and happy not to over pronounce their Rs (and thereby screw up pitch) in that harsh/grating way common in some other parts of the USA* - they just have to remember not to conserve said Rs and drop them inadvertently at the end of terminal vowel somewhere else in a fit of absent-minded frugality. Example from Matthew 2: Judah ~ Jyooder....)


    * Indelible memory of my sister's recounting of her first encounter with the family of her second husband of unhappy memory, a family from the uppermost part of the Great Plains: "They really pronounce their ARRRRRRZZZ."
  • rvisser
    Posts: 81
    @Chant_Supremacist
    "The" is pronounced "thuh" when followed by a word that begins with a consonant. It is pronounced "thee" when followed by a word that begins with a vowel.
    Ex. "Holy, holy, holy! Though THUH darkness hide thee, Though THEE eye of sinful man thy glory may not see."
  • Yes that's what I do, should have just taken a moment to be more specific. It's nice to know it's an accepted rule though.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,212
    One of my favorite NO memories (slightly derogatory) is visiting the parish in which I was baptized for Christmas. We were there on the Sunday after Christmas as well, and the reader got up to do the introductions, in an almost too on-the-nose eastern/central Massachusetts accent, including “Our opening hymn is ‘Hark the Herald Angels Sing,’ number XX, that’s “Hark the Herald Angels Sing.’” The diction of the volunteer singers was not much better.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,464
    At Jahdin Mahsh the hahkih’s cry
    announces that a sale is nigh!
    Awake, and hahkin for he brings
    glahd tidings of the sales of things!

    Tune: WINCHESTER NEW

    * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_Marsh
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  • tandrews
    Posts: 207
    Ok, but when do/don't you flip or roll Rs when singing in English?
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,212
    @Liam, oh yes. We make the muffins (at least the recipe claimed to be from the bakery). My family, including one member who moved to Boston as a young adult and spent a decade there before moving on, knows it well. I am too young (well, I guess as a baby I could have gone) but I have been to the AMC in Framingham at least once (probably twice or more, actually) near Shoppers World.
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  • @tandrews In English, Personally never, it would be pure pretension in my country/city/parish. That has to be worth something in pronunciation standards.
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  • SponsaChristi
    Posts: 606
    (Is it E-ville or E-vull?)

    This is precisely the problem I have. I got caught up on “divine”. I always hear people say “dee-vine”, but my gut feeling was that was wrong, but then it’s, is it “duh-vine” or “di-vine”?
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,464
    "Dih-vine".

    And the recipe for the famous Jordan Marsh blueberry muffins, from Yankee Magazine. (Pro tip for people lucky to live in eastern New England and the Canadian Maritimes in late July and early August: always choose wild (that is, low bush) blueberries over high bush blueberries - the short fresh wild blueberry season is nigh... - but you can use frozen wild blueberries - more easily found in grocer freezer cases - if you rinse them a few times until the water color gets pale and GENTLY blot them dry).

    https://newengland.com/food/breads/jordan-marsh-blueberry-muffins/
  • SponsaChristi
    Posts: 606
    in an almost too on-the-nose eastern/central Massachusetts accent, including “Our opening hymn is ‘Hark the Herald Angels Sing,’ number XX, that’s “Hark the Herald Angels Sing


    Did it sound like this?
    https://youtu.be/pB2l6UESSyo?si=M86Y8Se7oM0qiCyO
    Those h’s and r’s are something else. Bonus is the pronunciation of Bethlehem.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,464
    Whatever that is, it is so NOT an eastern Massachusetts accent. Those people are From Away...Way Away (as in Southern California)

    For a non-toffee-nosed Boston accent back within living memory, here's Caahd'nil Cushing reciting the rosary in English (in the words of TIME magazine at his death, he had "a voice like coal rattling down a chute into a South Boston basement"):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyWu04Baljk


    PS: link to map of North American English dialects -

    https://www.aschmann.net/AmEng/#LargeMap1Right
    Thanked by 1MatthewRoth
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,913
    Rvisser states the rule quite correctly. My favorite two examples are thinkers, though: "the universe" "the hour".
  • SponsaChristi
    Posts: 606
    My favorite two examples are thinkers, though: "the universe" "the hour".

    The rule is based on the sound of the first letter. If the letter is a vowel, but it makes the sound of a consonant, the is pronounced “thuh” whereas if it begins the the sound of a vowel, it’s pronounced thee.
    Thanked by 3CHGiffen Liam dad29
  • oldhymnsoldhymns
    Posts: 260
    I used the Jordan Marsh blueberry muffin recipe yesterday. However, I substituted wineberries for blueberries. Wineberries, which are red and grow wild, are a little smaller than raspberries and are in season here in eastern Massachusetts right now. I've tried many blueberry muffin recipes, and I found this to be the best.

    BTW, once, after Cardinal Cushing had recited the rosary on the radio, many ladies called the radio station immediately afterwards complaining that on one decade the beloved Cardinal only said nine Hail Marys! How could have he missed one?
    Thanked by 2Liam MatthewRoth
  • GambaGamba
    Posts: 641
    @tandrews, about Rs, this is a crass oversimplification, but generally:

    Rs before a vowel sound, or between vowel sounds are pronounced: Rejoice, bRing, andRew, choRus

    Rs not before vowel sounds are deemphasized to near oblivion / replaced by a schwa: honouR, shepheRd, brighteR

    Rolling/flipping Rs is context-dependent; an inner voice pp won’t need much if any, and a tutti in unison will want more.
    Thanked by 2tandrews CHGiffen
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,464
    The allophones of R in English language speech:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pronunciation_of_English_/r/
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,212
    Whatever that is, it is so NOT an eastern Massachusetts accent. Those people are From Away...Way Away (as in Southern California)
    yeah, like, Boston/eastern/central Massachusetts, particularly in the lower classes and with some more variability among the upper classes (Boston Brahmins) are historically non-rhotic…California is like peak rhoticity.

    Liam, the old Irish accents are somewhat brighter to me. Cardinal Cushing’s is not quite as bright as my nana’s (and she was born a full thirty-four years later, so, linguistically speaking, more like two generations later), but the non-rhoticity and distinctive vowels (including but not limited to the TRAP/BATH vowels) are on display with Cushing.

    But the funny thing about Boston is that the Brahmin accent is sort of all over the place, overlapping with but remaining distinctive from the accent that lower-class folks (so most Catholics) have, the one that is stereotypically portrayed in media.
  • JonLaird
    Posts: 235
    To the original question, some good manuals are The Singer's Manual of English Diction by Madeleine Marshall, and Diction for Singers by Joan Wall et al. Modify according to your own context and well-developed sense of beauty and taste.
    Thanked by 1Chant_Supremacist
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,464
    Matthew

    "the old Irish accents"

    And they vary: Ireland is reasonably rich its own local pronunciations. Boston's Irish were heavily dominated by emigrants from Kerry and Cork (by reputation - and my own brief experience fwwi - the least . . . xenophilic? . . . part of Ireland, which helped explain to me why I found Boston metro's Irish-American culture so different from the NYC metro area more than 40 years ago). My grandmother was from the center of the northern half of County Leitrim (Ireland's most depopulated county), so and her emigrant kin had a northwestern accent. Quite different from what I'd hear from Dubliners or Irish from Kerry/Cork.

    And the "Brahmin accent" was definitely not one thing, not like Received Pronunciation, and it can be hard to find its residue this day.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,212
    Exactly, on both counts.

    My own maternal ancestors hail with certainty from a part of Ireland that is if not entirely unknown in the U.S. it’s so unfamiliar that kids with more stereotypical Irish names would think that it wasn’t Irish on St Patrick’s Day. Which, fine, kids are not that smart or whatever. Then I met a guy from that area and told him this. He was like, what’s the name. So I told him. He said that it was very common there lol.
  • jcr
    Posts: 148
    In general, I would say that depending on where you are, English pronunciation for singing should sound, as much as possible, like spoken English. There are regional dialects to consider and there are the peculiarities of the native language of the singers. I have heard about the "one horse open sly" and similar things. I have also heard Latin sung with some interesting peculiarities quite inconsistent with the guides long available through Catholic publishers. This is not to mention the odd pronunciations of German and my own French to which a French speaking student said, "I can understand you, but you have an accent."
    I would try to avoid affectation. Also, many don't realize that articulation is a rhythmic problem. If everyone applies the consonant at the same time there is no need to "smash" the consonant. If everyone really whacks the consonant at a slightly different time you have a train wreck. Long vowels and short, crisp, accurate consonants will work wonders.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,237
    The rule is based on the sound of the first letter. If the letter is a vowel, but it makes the sound of a consonant, the is pronounced “thuh” whereas if it begins the the sound of a vowel, it’s pronounced thee.


    That rule was taught in grade school. Has education diminished so much that pronunciation of English is no longer a subject?
  • SponsaChristi
    Posts: 606
    That rule was taught in grade school. Has education diminished so much that pronunciation of English is no longer a subject?


    I have no recollection of ever learning pronunciation in school. I don’t even remember them teaching us how to read. I learned all that before I started school.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,464
    Nor was I, and the curriculum and faculty of my public school district back in that time (1966-73) was tops (our public schools were *much* better than our parochial schools; my parents were delighted to be able to send me entirely through our public school system). English language instruction did not include that level of *elocution*.

    I first encountered the rule when I started singing in choruses/choirs as a young adult.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,237
    Liam, I graduated from HS about the time you showed up for first grade.....
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,464
    So, your English language learning included declamation/elocution? (My parents' generation *before* WW2 had that.) My school district started mandatory foreign language instruction at age 9 (which was invaluable), and also had a rigorous 3-year Humanities alternative to English/Social Studies in high school.
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  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,212
    I don’t mind that children are taught to pronounce words and to read in a more structured way, provided that phonics is the core of the earliest efforts in kindergarten and in first grade (and I have some qualms about the way that we connect sounds to spelling even today: they should take more from TESOL/TEFL education). Ditching phonics has been a disaster. There are whole podcasts, article series, and more about this.
  • @dad29 No, education has not diminished that far, it has diminished far beyond that.
  • SponsaChristi
    Posts: 606
    No, education has not diminished that far, it has diminished far beyond that.

    It really has. People who have gone through the school system and graduated, who are not ESL students, cannot speak English clearly or coherently anymore.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,212
    People of all education levels use fillers or discourse markers; you need not just education but practice to minimize their usage and to avoid them entirely.

    I definitely have had conversations like that, but education is not exactly where I’d place the blame.
    Thanked by 1Liam
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,237
    Yah, well, we went to Catholic school........not for its superior coursework, but because it was CATHOLIC. But then.........ahhh.........a Jesuit high school, which unfortunately was NOT Catholic.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,464
    (FWIW, the Church batted 0.00% with retaining my 4 older sibs who went through Catholic grammar school and who left way faster than the 2 younger sibs who went K-12 through public school....)
  • SponsaChristi
    Posts: 606
    People of all education levels use fillers or discourse markers; you need not just education but practice to minimize their usage and to avoid them entirely.


    It’s not so much the fillers, but fillers combined with incorrect word order. It gets mentally exhausting after awhile.
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,193
    fillers combined with incorrect word order

    I'm pretty sure nobody diagrams sentences anymore, which may be why so many news stories online have clauses that do not modify the noun the author thought they were modifying.
  • SponsaChristi
    Posts: 606
    I'm pretty sure nobody diagrams sentences anymore

    We did in college, but that was back in 2006. They made us pay for an English class on grammar, the eight parts of speech and spelling. I asked if I could receive credit for prior learning because I already learned the material in elementary school and could provide proof of prior learning. Easiest A+ and biggest waste of money ever.
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