Introducing Sung Credo at NO Parish?

mcniff

What are y’all’s experiences introducing a sung Credo at a NO parish? I would like to do this, and I’m considering using the ICEL setting (based on Credo III) or adapting the “Old Scottish Chant” setting of the Gloria to the English text.

TCJ

We introduced it using the very, very simple version in the Ignatius Pew Missal. No issues with anyone.

Caleferink

I did in a previous parish, and the boomers in the “liturgy committee” complained (It’S nOt suPpOseD to Be sUnG, even though I showed them settings – chant, choral, etc. – to the contrary). I wouldn’t let it stop you. I would not, however, recommend the English adaptation of Credo III simply because I think it should stand on its own for the day when you can do it in Latin. The ICEL adaptation of Credo I is pretty good. Even simpler, Adam Bartlett has a setting based on Meinrad Psalm tone V on Source and Summit, Fr. Chepponis’ Jubilation Mass setting is a psalm-tone-like setting, as is the one in the Psallite Mass. Finally, if you have to go even simpler, Theodore Marier wrote out a setting for the old translation that is recto-tono with some very interesting chords underneath it in Hymns Psalms and Spiritual Canticles, and I think someone on here did a proposed revision to it with the current text.

davido

I have done ICEL Credo III occasionally for special occasions. No one complained, but it was sort of a self selecting congregation that was expecting the special/unusual.

I would not save any Gregorian melody in the hopes of someday having the congregation sing it in Latin. Especially a long text like the Creed. I have been doing this for a dozen years, and the people who really want Latin find a TLM parish. Average American pewsitters are not going to learn that much Latin. We introduced the Pater Noster this year, and tradition friendly, conservative friends my generation told me straight out, I like it but I’m too old to learn that much Latin. Sad but reality. Also, I go over the word for word translation of Latin chants with the kids, and I find the kids are not retaining the meaning of the words. Mostly they don’t care that much. So my hopes of long term change in interest in Latin liturgy are low.

However, vernacular plainsong is wonderful! Singing the Creed in English every week should have a big effect on a congregation’s approach to liturgy! And major key Credo 3 is just gonna be accepted better than minor key Credo 1. My two cents.
But either way, Go for it!

MatthewRoth

Which is bizarre because I think ultimately unicorn NO or trad parishes do better singing Mass XI and Credo I than VIII & III, even if they still sing the latter strongly by force of having done it for so long before introducing XI and keeping VIII for feasts, III to pair with polyphonic settings etc.

davido

Matthew, do you think those melodies are more singable? Or maybe often pitched in more comfortable keys?
Or maybe wear better with much repetition?

trentonjconn

I'll agree with Davido's observations. I tried ICEL Credo I and people didn't care for it because of the normie "minor = sad" mentality. ICEL Credo III was better received, though there were still definitely folks who didn't like singing the creed (or singing at all). We used it on every occasion which called for a creed for probably four years (sung creed did not survive when I left the position). The idea of saving Credo III for Latin is nice in theory, but not practical. As Davido observes, an average NO congregation will absolutely not tolerate being expected to sing (or even to listen to) that much Latin in one chunk. Sad, but it is what it is. Be prepared to meet some degree of resistance/confusion/consternation, but don't let it stop you. Whatever you choose, make sure the setting is available in the hymnal or some other pew resource. Also make sure they know where to find said resource. I announced before Mass that the creed would be sung going forward and told everyone where to find it, did this for the first few weeks. It was always up on the hymn board as well.

MatthewRoth

Yeah, I think they are more singable as chant melodies. The keys for the Sanctus and Agnus of Mass VIII are the usual ones in Portier’s Liber Cantualis Comitante Organo, F (so one flat of course), but I don’t think that they’re easy… whereas I think that Mass XI and Credo I are more melodically repetitive, the music matches the ends of textual phrases in the Gloria a bit better…I am glad that we turn to Mass VIII only occasionally, and it’s like we never gave it up, but each time, I’m reminded of why I think that tonality being the prime consideration (and I think that for a lot of people, that + its preconciliar popularity are why Mass VIII and Credo III are chosen) seems odd.

The keys might help. In Portier, Credo I has one sharp. (I don’t know what the usual pitches are, if one were to survey accompaniment books, but one sharp sounds right for certain chants of the same mode, based on my experience of the office.) Mode I chants are pretty much always with one flat, D minor basically, mode II three sharps…now Portier goes to one sharp for the Agnus, and either that or the Sanctus are, IMHO, the hardest chants of Mass XI, but I think by the time that you get to them in the Mass, you can handle them after the fourths of the Gloria.

Don9of11

During the late 1970s till the late 1990s, St. Mary's Parish in Akron, Ohio celebrated a Latin Mass in the NO with sung mass settings like "Mass in G by Theodore La Hace" or "Mass in Honor of the Holy Family by Charles Cremer" and others but we never sang the Credo from any of the mass settings we knew. Of course those mass settings aren't simple from the stand point of the congregation so that might be why we never did it.

Liam

There's a reason Theodore Marier developed his monotone vernacular Gloria and Creed as training wheels - and they worked very well (they never became "monotonous" but were rather simply glorious in their own way - I will never forget the first time I encountered the Creed in situ in 1983 and was quite taken with the elemental genius of it as I heard a full church singing together heartily) as other more complex vernacular settings were added to the repertoire.

ServiamScores

We introduced my own transcription of credo iii at my last parish and it was received well and sung with gusto every week for about 2 years. About a year in, a few people who always attended the choir mass complained that they never got to recite the creed, but felt like they couldn’t pray it while singing for some odd reason. It was a small minority, however. I introduced this same transcription at the cathedral for Corpus Christi and people sang it surprisingly well, so we will reintroduce it once choir season starts back up.

Free score:
https://psallitedomino.com/blog/singing-the-creed

MatthewRoth

I will say, having had to attend the Byzantine Divine Liturgy the last two Sundays: restarting the sentences where the Latin is just one long sentence, except for the very end of the Credo, makes the ICEL translation less than ideal (the translation used in the Byzantine churches, in this country, is like Cranmer: it’s one “I believe” and there’s no verb again until “I confess” and “I expect” or whatever is used there according to the translation).

It’s not terribly smooth (and I admit, the 1940 version of Credo I would be pretty nice week in and week out in a vernacular liturgy).

Gamba

I came to a “unicorn” NO parish where every Sunday at the principal Mass, ICEL Credo I was sung, alternating choir/all. I can’t speak to the introduction of it in 2010 or 11, but by the time I got there in 2017, it was as taken-for-granted and expected as Tuesday bingo. Plumbers and farmers and blue-collar boomers just sang it. [Latin] Credo III came out on solemnities.

Sincere minds may disagree on whether this was the right course, but when he stood following the homily, Father always said: “Now we will sing together the Creed, which can be found on page ##.” He then intoned it – so it was apparent to all that the sung Credo was his baby, and not something the weird DoM cooked up.

matthewj

We did Credo III in Latin at the principal Mass at the Cathedral I worked at. There was some backlash the first few weekends but then it waned. We would do a different polyphonic or choral setting of the Et Incarnatus Est each weekend - I think at the end we had 23 or 24 settings, so they didn’t get repeated often.

Another parish I worked at had, before my arrival, started doing Credo III in English during OT and in Latin during the seasons. I loathed doing it in English. It’s just.. not great. Particularly “baptism”.

wspinnen

I'll share what I've learned as far as mistakes I perceive now and how I could do it better in the future:

Once I attempted to do Credo III at a NO English/Latin Mass each Sunday. I think on paper the PIP's liked the idea, but I imposed it too quickly. My experience, which may not be yours necessarily, would advise me to start by doing it for major feasts (Christmas, Epiphany, etc.) and once to twice a month during Ordinary Time. It's one of those things that just takes time, like introducing sung propers and more traditional hymnody.

henry

The one in English by Chepponis, I believe, in Worship 4th edition is nice.

Caleferink

The one in English by Chepponis, I believe, in Worship 4th edition is nice.

That’s the one I’ve used.

SponsaChristi

However, vernacular plainsong is wonderful! Singing the Creed in English every week should have a big effect on a congregation’s approach to liturgy!

Given the cultural diversity that makes up many parishes, it seems that the Credo (as well as the Pater Noster) should be sung in the Church’s universal language, Latin.

mcniff

Thank you all for your responses. I like the idea of introducing it on solemnities. This sort of thing needs to be done gradually. I'll try out the ICEL Credo III on Assumption (after all, many of those who would object the strongest likely won't be there).

liampmcdonough

In the 2 parishes where I have experience implementing the congregationally sung Creed, it took about a year for everyone to get the hang of it (Merbecke, ordinariate context). I would disagree with a gradual approach. Once a week is barely enough to get it into people's working memory, learning exclusively by rote. Recommend doing in alternatem at first, giving the PIP 3-4 sections to do, the rest with the choir, that way PIP hear the melody many Sundays before they sing it.
Would not implement unless clergy are deeply committed. You have to be willing for the congregation to crash and burn for several months straight.

Also, congregational chant accompaniment is entirely different from schola accompaniment. You must play loud enough that enthusiastic congregants don't feel exposed for the 1st several months when only a few people are singing. 4' principle on at all times to provide the singing tone. Back off later when people are more confident

Liam

I couldn't agree more emphatically with Liampmcdonough's advice. All the points he makes are extremely well considered and worth heeding.

Gamba

^^^^

john m

In the diocese of Marquette about 12 years ago, our then-Bishop Sample asked parishes to introduce the sung Creed at each parish's principal Mass. We did so, and have sung it every Sunday since, using the ICEL Credo III adaptation. The people sing it very well now and it is accepted by the congregation as standard practice at that Mass and on the principal Mass of obligatory Holy Days. Should the sung Credo be questioned, I just say "Bishop Sample asked all the parishes to do it, and Bishop Doerfler reinforced the practice. We are complying with that request." It is helpful that it be backed by the Bishop and not seen as just a whim of the pastor or music director.

As for introducing it, we passed on to the congregation what the Bishop asked of us, and the choir just started singing it, and within a few weeks the people were catching on. We don't sing it antiphonally, but I do divide the accompaniment between the Gt and Sw on the organ so as to retain some of the character of an antiphonal chant.

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