English hymn in honor of Saint Mary Magdalene (draft, feedback requested)
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,211
    Une fois n’est pas coutume. The feast of the Madeleine is approaching, and I felt inspired after hearing AURELIA. I’d appreciate your feedback.

    O sing of blessed Mary,
    Let holy church praise her,
    Beloved of the Father,
    Who gifted her with myrrh.
    She enters Simon’s dwelling,
    Where Jesus sits at meat.
    She kisses and anoints Him,
    Her hair to dry His feet.

    Christ casts out sev’n demons,
    Grace multiplied by sev’n,
    Once a vessel of passion,
    Now holds the life of heav’n;
    Sister of holy Laz’rus,
    Both risen from the dead:
    So great were her offenses,
    By faith and love she pled.

    She sits in contemplation,
    Choosing the better part.
    Amidst the consternation,
    Christ enflames her heart.
    In endless adoration,
    She follows to the cross.
    Weeping in blood and water,
    The Mad’leine mourns her loss.

    She goes on that first morning,
    And finds the empty tomb.
    She runs to Simon Peter,
    First to see Christ the groom,
    Who goes forth in Gal’lee;
    Now she is without tears.
    Her hope is life eternal;
    Perfect love casts out fears.

    To the Father be glory,
    And also to the Son,
    And to the loving Spirit
    From whom all graces run,
    Who was and is and shall be,
    Whose love hath set her free,
    All praise and honor, blessings,
    Forever one in three.

    A few thoughts: Yes, I know. I believe that the three Marys are one. I did not actually consider that “By all your saints still striving” is in the same meter. I took inspiration from the Cluniac hymn Lauda mater Ecclesia found at monastic Vespers and the hymn Pater superni luminis attributed to Saint Robert Bellarmine in the Roman office, in addition to the gospels of Luke (chapters 7, 8, 10), Mark (15, 16), Matthew (27, 28) and John (11, 12, 20); the Roman hymn also alludes to (one could say) 1 John 4:18.

    Because I felt that a full text (not realizing that there was a verse to work from already) for this saint would be nice with this tune, I wound up choosing a meter that lends itself somewhat to prose. I use lightly some archaisms for the sake of the meter and rhyme (I also worked from the Douay-Rheims edition). I stick with the present tense for the sake of meter, and as it happens, the Latin hymns also stick to that tense. I think that the two parts where I do need a past tense it makes sense in framing and concluding the story.

    As far as rhyme goes: I considered the rhyme necessary at the end of 6 and 6, then 6 and 6 again. Not everyone in this meter rhymes the 7 and 7 in the same way, nor all four 6’s together…but I’m willing to consider my way as deficient. Anyway, feedback would be helpful.
    Thanked by 3Chant_Supremacist CHGiffen monasteryliturgist
  • monasteryliturgistmonasteryliturgist
    Posts: 508
    Its quite beautiful. Good Job. I also believe all the Marys are one! Thank you for keeping that tradition!

    I thought it was nice, the only lines I thought might be adjusted a little bit:

    "Let holy church praise her"- it works, I just think the way it ends on her, doesnt go as smoothly with the music, it puts too harsh of an emphasis, but is not that big of a deal.
    "Once a vessel of passion" and "Who goes forth in Gal’lee"- works, but if you interchanged it with other melodies of the same meter, it might not work as well. I would strive for something that would universally fit other melodies with the same meter.
    Personally I would put Mad-e-line/Mag-de-lene mourns her loss rather than The Madeline. Normally that would only be acceptable in Romantic Languages, I think it sounds funny for English Speakers....
    I would change the doxology so the accent of Father would be more natural, maybe "Glory be to the Father" or "All Glory to the Father"

    With all that being said, I think you did an excellent job these are just minor details but could certainly be ignored. I commend your work for the great contemplative of mercy.

  • GerardH
    Posts: 620
    Mad-e-line/Mag-de-lene

    Maudlin?
    /purple
    Who goes forth in Gal’lee;

    Shouldn't this line have seven syllables?
    First to see Christ the groom,

    Feels like it's thumping on 'First to see Christ'

    I can't say I agree with the traditional conflation of the Marys, but I won't go into that. Nice text.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,211
    @monasteryliturgist re: the naming, yeah, but the way to get two syllables in English is weird for Americans; since the cathedral of Salt Lake City is “of the Madeleine” I figured that it was acceptable.

    the doxology, I can see, so thanks. I’ll think about the rhythm problem for other tunes of the meter where it’s maybe not as good a fit.

    @GerardH even arithmetic isn’t my strong suit either.

    Regarding the conflation, I know that it was bound to come up both ways…can’t please everyone. :)
  • monasteryliturgistmonasteryliturgist
    Posts: 508
    Conflation:

    There was one priest that noted that if it wasnt the same Mary, the Gospel writers most likely would have distinguished just as they did with "the other Marys". It makes the Gospels feel incoherent if they are not the same, then there is the fact of tradition. The same priest said, its like if you had a family tradition and then some little cousin told all the elderly of the family, no you have it wrong Aunt Suzy and Aunt Suzette are two different people...

    I have personally read the arguments in favor for three Marys and it doesnt have a lot of basis other than theory.... and again, if I have to go for tradition vs. theory, I would say tradition seems safer. Plus all the mystics of the church who had visions which supported these traditions (even though I know private revelation isnt dogma, it sure does speak to something).
    Thanked by 3MatthewRoth CHGiffen tomjaw
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,913
    Sorry, you lost me at "HOly CHURCH praise HUR".
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,211
    You know there was probably another way to say that. I’m not sure what your actual complaint is, so I can’t change the line if I feel like taking your advice.

    But was the cruelty the point? I asked for feedback, not for you to be rude. You don’t have to like it, but if you don’t have a suggestion or complaint that gets you to, you know, offer feedback on the rest, please don’t bother. It’s a mutual waste of time.
    Thanked by 1Chant_Supremacist
  • monasteryliturgistmonasteryliturgist
    Posts: 508
    Keep going Matthew, you have something beautiful in the makings! Dont be discouraged!
    Thanked by 1MatthewRoth
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,524
    Very nice! But, I would consider this a very good draft and do a lot of editing now. That's my procedure, anyway. 1% inspiration (and this is great that way) and 99% perspiration.

    Richard Mix above points out one problem: metrical stress. The stresses of the tune should fall naturally with the stresses of the words. Very often you get this exactly right, but a number of times miss.

    da Duh da Duh da Duh da

    da Duh da Duh da Duh

    The CHURCH's ONE founDAtion
    Is JEsus CHRIST her LORD

    "Her" in line 2 should be a Duh but it's a da.

    One way I check myself on meter is by singing it through slowly and seeing if the stresses seem to fall properly.

    Does this make sense? I'm kinda sleepy--could say it over better tomorrow.

    Thanked by 3CHGiffen tomjaw trentonjconn
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,211
    Yeah it makes sense. Like, despite my posturing, I did get a lot of exposure to the 1940 and similar classic hymnals (we sometimes used the Adoremus in the pew but often didn’t) as an adolescent, and did study poetry so I get that the meter and the stress need to match not just the meter being made to fit notes.

    Course, I did that and still either made mistakes or don’t hear the problem. But yes that is why it’s a draft.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • unknownadversary
    Posts: 13
    There are some things that stood out to me:
    Having Father on the third line of the first verse was jarring because it also rhymed with her and myrrh.

    The repetition of seven in two consecutive lines in that form is awkward for me - maybe because it's in the same form too?
    I think
    Christ casts out demons seven,
    Grace sev'ntimes multiplied
    Now holds the life of heaven;
    The life of passion died

    I also had issues with seven and Heaven at the end of the line - I found it impossible to contract it.

    I think that it makes sense to switch around in and weeping in the third verse - It sounds better to me.

    I think
    First to see Christ the groom,

    could be reworked to "The first to Christ the Groom"

    The next line feels like it shouldn't end in Galilee. Would it be wrong to make it end in forth?

    Everything else was already pointed out.

    It's a solid hymn - I enjoyed it.
    Can't wait to see it perfected.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,211
    Unknownadversary, welcome. I agree, the rhyming of three lines in a row (her, Father, myrrh) is irregular in the sense that you don’t expect the middle line to also rhyme. The one modern image that I have introduced (I think a worthy one) is that she is a beloved child of the Father (OK, not that this is new, but I think the expression is very JP2 in a way that I find important).

    The next line feels like it shouldn't end in Galilee. Would it be wrong to make it end in forth?


    That’s because I just miscounted, having an idea in my head already. So yes, flipping the word order around fixes it.

    Christ casts out demons seven,
    Grace sev'ntimes multiplied
    Now holds the life of heaven;
    The life of passion died


    This is nice; the problem is that it’s now rhyming abab instead of at the end of the even lines. The juxtaposition of the seven demons and grace times seven is done more elegantly in the Roman monastic hymn (where you don’t have a repetition of the same form!). The vessel imagery also comes from the same hymn.

    In any case, thank you for those comments.
  • unknownadversary
    Posts: 13
    I did notice the abab - but another abab rhyme is also in the third verse, so I left it there.
    It would be better to have them all the same rhyme scheme.
  • trentonjconn
    Posts: 772
    The thing which stands out to me most when trying to sing it is the somewhat awkward stress pattern in some of the words, as others have pointed out above. Sister, for example, would have to be sung as "sis-TER" in verse two, "choos-ING" and "weep-ING" in verse three, "per-FECT" in four, "fa-THER" in five. Just my two cents; I am not a hymn-writer. It's certainly a neat idea for a hymn!
    Thanked by 1MatthewRoth
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,211
    It would be better, but I’m not going to change the whole thing. The meter is more important to me, I think.

    I think that’s the one thing on which I’ll be inflexible. Sorry if that offends! But more lightly, I have noticed quite a wide variety of rhyme schemes for hymns of the same meter (and I think that frankly Lord and word isn’t even a close half rhyme, so I don’t feel so bad).
  • fcbfcb
    Posts: 389
    Some suggestions, mostly related to meter.
    Christ casts out sev’n demons,

    You don't need the elision on "seven"--in fact, it leaves you a syllable short.
    Once a vessel of passion,

    You've got one syllable too many, I think. You could drop the "a."
    Sister of holy Laz’rus,

    Ordinarily the emphasis in "sister" falls on the first syllable, but the meter here puts it on the second. The same is true of "choosing" and "weeping" in the third stanza and "Perfect" in the fourth. All of them sound a little bit artificial.
    Christ enflames her heart.

    A syllable short. You could try replacing Christ with "Our Lord" or "The Lord."
    She runs to Simon Peter,
    First to see Christ the groom,

    It's not clear who the second line refers to. In John's Gospel Mary is the one who sees him first; but in the other Gospels it seems to be the eleven and in 1 Corinthians it is Peter. Also, the meter on "First to see" seems a bit off, maybe because "to" and "see" are both unstressed. You might address both issues with something like "with glad news of the groom" (it fits the meter more naturally and all the gospels agree that Mary brought news to the apostles of the resurrection).
    To the Father be glory,

    Some meter issues here that could be solved by changing it to "All glory to the Father."

    Sorry if this seems like a lot of suggestions.


    Thanked by 1trentonjconn
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