Weekday Propers
  • Ellie
    Posts: 5
    I have read a few discussions about weekday Mass Propers already posted here.
    During weekdays in Ordinary Time, the propers come from the previous Sunday.
    I am still not sure about propers for this week and next weeks.
    For this week, do you use Pentecost Sunday or 10th Sunday in Ordinary Time?
    And the following Sundays are Trinity, Corpus Christi Sunday and Sts. Peter and Paul. Do you use propers from those Sundays or 11th,12th,13th Sundays in Ordinary Time?

    Another question is;
    Is it inappropriate to have antiphons recited when it done with a hymn sung(before or after)?
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,210
    Ordinary Time in all of those cases. While it does not account for your diocese or parish which will have other requirements, the USCCB has the national calendar and the daily readings tool which both show from where one would take the texts when Mass is not of a feast in the weeks after Pentecost, Trinity, Corpus Christi, or when another solemnity occurs on a Sunday as is the case on June 29 this year.

    To the second question, reciting antiphons is done if no music is used.
  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 1,089
    Yes, you take the propers from Ordinary Time on ordinary weekdays, irrespective of the solemnity or feast that was celebrated on the Sunday before.

    If you take a closer look at your Graduale Romanum, you see that the propers of Ordinary Time are arranged according to subsequent ‘hebodmadæ per annum’, that is ‘weeks of Ordinary Time’, not Sundays.

    The Graduale also indicates when on certain days another proper is more appropriate. So, for this week (Hebdomada X, Anno I) on Monday (feria 2) the Gradual is Benedicam Dominum instead of Propitius esto, and the Communio is Beati mundo cordo instead of Dominus firmamentum.

    But note that you can use any proper from Ordinary Time on any weekday (see the remark on page 13: ‘In omnibus Missis de Tempore eligi potest pro opportunitate, loco ciusvis cantus diei proprii, alius ex eodem tempore.’) And there is also a set of Communion antiphons that you can always use, see page 391.

    When a hymn is sung instead of the proper chant, the antiphon is not recited. The proper antiphon is only recited when nothing is sung.
    Thanked by 2Roborgelmeister CHGiffen
  • Ellie
    Posts: 5
    Thank you very much for your answers.

    Another questions; (Sorry in case these questions are already mentioned before.)
    When nothing is sung at Mass(by the way, is there a term for that, Mass without singing?
    In our community we just call it 'quiet Mass')
    do you recite the proper antiphon from Gradual Romanum or from Roman Missal?

    My community I belong to just started having the proper antiphons. I am a music director. I am trying to make a gradual transition. So we still sing a hymn first and
    I chant the proper antiphon after an Entrance hymn even though the celebrant procession
    is short enough that just the proper chant can cover. As I have been doing for the last
    a couple of month, I am just wondering if I could just recite the antiphon. That is where
    my question is coming from. We definitely want to have the proper antiphon. I am just
    curious if it can be recited after or before a hymn at weekday Mass.
  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 1,089
    When nothing is sung at Mass do you recite the proper antiphon from Gradual Romanum or from Roman Missal?


    The Roman Missal. The antiphons from the missal are intended to be recited when nothing is sung: ‘Even though the text of the Roman Gradual, at least that which concerns the singing, has not been changed, still, for a better understanding, the responsorial psalm, which St. Augustine and St. Leo the Great often mention, has been restored, and the Introit and Communion antiphons have been adapted for read Masses’ (Paul VI, Missale Romanum, April 3, 1969).

    We definitely want to have the proper antiphon. I am just curious if it can be recited after or before a hymn at weekday Mass.


    I wouldn’t do that. When singing a hymn, you could maybe add a sung antiphon, but adding a recited antiphon might give the wrong suggestion that the hymn had no value at all.

    It’s not that the text of the Introit or Communion must be resounded, it’s all about there being an Entrance Chant or a Communion Chant, whatever it may be: either a sung antiphon, a sung hymn or – if there is no singing – a recited antiphon.

    If you value the proper antiphons and want to introduce these gradually, you could also start by replacing the hymn at communion with a proper chant now and then, increase its frequency until people have become accustomed to it. Then start by replacing the hymn during the entrance with the proper chant once in while, and increase its frequency.

    The Source and Summit Missal is a great resource to gradually introduce the proper chants this way into Masses on weekdays.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,210
    It’s not that the text of the Introit or Communion must be resounded, it’s all about there being an Entrance Chant or a Communion Chant, whatever it may be: either a sung antiphon, a sung hymn or – if there is no singing – a recited antiphon


    Which is a disadvantage of the new rubrics and of deleting the offertory text from the missal. Just about all of this is cleaned up with the Ordinariate.
  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 1,089
    Which is a disadvantage of … deleting the offertory text from the missal.


    Off the top of my head, I can think of a couple of reasons the offertory text didn’t end up in the Missale Romanum.

    1. The nature of the missal The missal is no longer a book that has all texts for Mass. It’s the book specifically for the priest. The readings are in the Lectionary, the chants in the Roman Gradual. It’s by exception that the antiphons at the entrance and communion for read Masses have been added.
    2. Rubrics for the offertory The Offertory Chant is sung while the priest prepares and incenses the altar (‘interim’, Ordo Missæ 21). The missal has the rubric that ‘If, however, the Offertory Chant is not sung, the Priest may speak these words [‘Benedíctus es, Dómine…’] aloud’ (Ordo Missæ 23 and 25). So, either the Offertory Chant is sung, or the ‘Benedictus es, Domine’ is allowed to be said aloud. The possibility of reciting the offertory is not given.
    3. The nature of the Offertory Chant While the Entrance antiphon and the Communion antiphon are ‘stand alone’ texts, the offertory is not. The Offertory Chant from the Graduale Romanum is a responsory. Does one expect the people to recite the response or should the priest recite the entire text himself? It’s a bit ambiguous.

    This is just what came to mind; probably it has already been explained extensively somewhere else…

    Just about all of this is cleaned up with the Ordinariate.


    Which isn’t the context Ellie is operating in…
    Thanked by 3Liam CHGiffen mattebery
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,210
    Yeah, I know that you may (emphasis on may) recite the offertory prayers out loud with the response made by the congregation, but it’s still very dumb, because the out-loud offertory is one of the worst features of the new rite even if you don’t have any funny business otherwise.

    What is so hard about giving the offertory text for when there is no chant? It’s obviously read before the preparation of the elements anyway, so it’s not exclusive of the possibility of reading the offertory out loud (as silly as I think that this is: sometimes the congregation and priest just need to zip it). Come, on!

    The point is not that Ellie is in the Ordinariate context. (Did I say that she was?) The point is that this isn’t something limited to trads who want to hold on to the pre-Vatican II liturgy and all of its…however we wish to characterize it.

    The Offertory Chant from the Graduale Romanum is a responsory.
    in practice it is not, the new graduale allows for the shortening of one of the few that has this form (at the Requiem Mass), and it’s just not that big of a deal; otherwise, we’d eliminate all responsories from the breviary, which seems like an overreaction.

    I just don’t think that “what should the priest read if there is no music at the offertory?” is that hard of a question to answer.
  • Ellie
    Posts: 5
    I am very grateful for all you posted above.
    Another question:
    Are you familiar with Gelineau psalms?
    In our songbook, we have a whole section of Gelineau psalms.
    I am wondering,
    since you can use any proper from Ordinary Time on any weekday,
    if we sing one of them as an Entrance, which we have been doing for years,
    would it be considered as an introit?
    Because most of antiphons are from scriptures.


  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,627
    Where I live, yes.
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