Homily Length?
  • trentonjconn
    Posts: 698
    I'd like to start with a bit of a disclaimer before I ask this question. I work in a great parish, and I'm truly very blessed to have landed the job that I currently work. The following is a legitimate question as opposed to a platform for griping. So.

    We regularly have 20-40 minute sermons. Easter Vigil was just shy of 50. Is this commonplace? How long is too long for a homily? Do we, as directors of music and therefore people who are paid to make liturgy go well, have the right to talk to our bosses (cordially of course) about preaching which is perhaps overly lengthy or rambly? Is it better to just keep one's head down and embrace what's good? Is this a stupid question? I worry sometimes that folks who are visiting or maybe potential converts are put off by a Sunday Mass without polyphony lasting an hour and 45. Thanks for your time and thoughts, ladies and gents. No disrespect to any clerics out there on the forum who are accustomed to preaching longer homilies.

    Happy Eastertide!

  • Liam
    Posts: 5,245
    It's not common in my experience, and priests who indulge it often deploy insincere self-deprecation to continue doing it; priests who regularly preach at such length are likely to be defensive about it.

    7-10 minutes is, in my experience, often held as a good marker of what priests should aim for even if they don't actually achieve it in practice.
  • I think that fifteen minutes or less at the most should be normative, assuming the preacher is a good preacher (and few are those who have St John Chrysostom's golden tongue!). An average preacher should limit himself to ten or twelve minutes at the most. Homilies in excess of twenty minutes (let alone forty or fifty!) are an act of self-indulgence by the preacher. At Walsingham we are spoiled by excellent preaching which rarely exceeds ten or so minutes.

    As to whether to address the length or quality of a given priest's homilies depends on your priest's attitude to criticism (gentle criticism with a smile, of course!).
  • francis
    Posts: 10,978
    Our Pastor is excellent and he keeps them to 10 minutes max. You always want to keep ‘em wanting more… never feeling like when is this gonna end.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,245
    Usually in public speaking, duration is inversely related to effort in preparation.

  • Diapason84
    Posts: 105
    After 5-7 minutes, the cleric is usually repeating himself, but sometimes enjoys the sound of his voice too much to stop.
  • SponsaChristi
    Posts: 487
    I would say 20 minutes should be the max and should be rare. In the EF sermons tend to run longer. 15 minutes is fairly common. In the OF homilies tend to be around 5 minutes, which, IMHO, is too short for Sundays, especially given the lack of catechesis, and unwillingness of the laity to take responsibility for learning the Faith.

    Long preaching is more of a Protestant thing. The purpose of Mass isn’t the preaching, so it should not dominate the Mass.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,846
    The mistake is to give the time in minutes, when we started sing polyphonic Credo, I timed the Mass, so I was ready to give the times of the notices, sermon and Canon, and the fractions for singing Polyphonic settings.

    So give it in length of the time taken compared to the time to say the Canon of the Mass... Our notices can sometimes be as long as the Canon, and sermons can be 2 to 3 times the length of the Canon.
  • CatholicZ09
    Posts: 313
    I like 10 minutes max. I know that seems short to many, but with the average Novus Ordo congregation in the States, you can tell people start to tune out after 10 minutes. You should be able to get the main point across within that amount of time.
    Thanked by 2trentonjconn tomjaw
  • GerardH
    Posts: 528
    The late Pope Francis was very insistent on a number of occasions that homilies should be no longer than ten minutes.

    And the homily must be prepared well; it must be brief, short! A priest told me that once he had gone to another city where his parents lived, and his father told him: “You know, I am pleased, because my friends and I have found a church where they say Mass without a homily!”. And how often do we see that during the homily some fall asleep, others chat or go outside to smoke a cigarette…. For this reason, please, make the homily brief, but prepare it well. And how do we prepare a homily, dear priests, deacons, bishops? How should it be prepared? With prayer, by studying the Word of God and by making a clear and brief summary; it should not last more than 10 minutes, please.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,245
    The Jesuits at Farm Street use a 7 minute warning light for homilists. Preaching orders tend to cultivate preparation and concision. Long sermons were more typically reserved for missions and devotions.

    There's also the issue of maturation in ministry. Young priests may fall vulnerable to a perceived sense that more is adding value, both in the confessional and in the pulpit, especially the confessional.
  • Marc Cerisier
    Posts: 560
    Growing up with 3–7 min, it can be challenging to experience 20-40 min now. My experience is that very few can prepare and present a lengthy homily and keep everyone engaged. There are those that can, but they are the exception.
  • davido
    Posts: 1,040
    Presbyterian ministers of my youth would preach for a half hour. But it was a written, prepared talk with deep exegetical dives into scriptural texts, often working line by line through a few verses. The bulk of his working hours during the week were given to sermon writing.
    Catholic priests do not have the time to devote to this. Plus the homily is really an anomaly in the mass, even though it is now common place. The ubiquity of the homily really distracts from the mass as ritual sacrifice.

    My present pastor is noticeably brief, and I have become accustomed to it. Worse. I have come to prefer it. So many just ramble after 5 minutes.
    I have heard Catholic priests deliver tight, scriptural homilies, but they are usually former Anglicans.
  • AnimaVocis
    Posts: 171
    As a convert, I was used to 15-20 minutes. I don't mind longer, but I am appreciative when there is a good Homily between 8-12 minutes.

    That said, the most poignant sermon I ever heard was all of 2.5 minutes long...and even in that, the long, pondering silences were immense. To this day, I remember almost every word of that Sermon (by a rather "Catholic" Lutheran ((Missouri Synod)) Pastor)
    Thanked by 1trentonjconn
  • francis
    Posts: 10,978
    Catholic priests do not have the time to devote to this. Plus the homily is really an anomaly in the mass, even though it is now common place. The ubiquity of the homily really distracts from the mass as ritual sacrifice.

    My present pastor is noticeably brief, and I have become accustomed to it. Worse. I have come to prefer it. So many just ramble after 5 minutes.
    this is so good
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,710
    I would probably make a point of reminding our pastor that he asked for the tallest pulpit in the state if not the Southeast if he did this. Twenty plus minutes after the Charpentier Te Deum and before Benediction, when we had a black-tie function to follow, from the vicar general was tolerable only because he kept it coherent and knew that he had permission to preach that long just once.

    I like ten minutes. Sometimes, even no minutes. The liturgy is too long. (You joke, or make noise about the canons on preaching, but we went over three hours twice just during the Masses of Holy Week.)
  • SponsaChristi
    Posts: 487
    we went over three hours twice just during the Masses of Holy Week.

    This is the norm for the EF during Holy Week and the Triduum. We had a 3.5 hour long Easter Vigil with no baptisms, etc. We got finished at 2:30 am.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw trentonjconn
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 12,002
    In my years as a church musician, I always noticed from the vantage point of the loft what happened during sermons. After the scripture reading the phones came out. Was anyone really listening?
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,528
    the homily is really an anomaly in the mass, even though it is now common place. The ubiquity of the homily really distracts from the mass as ritual sacrifice.
    As Thomas Aquinas, the Council of Trent, and VII taught - the Mass is both instructional and a sacrifice. Aquinas sets out the Mass of the Catechumens as for the instruction of the people (orginally followed by their dismissal) after which we have the Mass of the Faithful, the offering of the Holy Sacrifice, its consumption and their dismissal. Lamentably, the committees established by Pius V and Paul VI both failed in their task of implementing what the Councils had specified.
    Trent said spelling out to the congregation what was being said at Mass was required of those with a cure of souls, because the words were not in the vernacular.
    Thanked by 2Liam CHGiffen
  • fcbfcb
    Posts: 355
    Usually in public speaking, duration is inversely related to effort in preparation.

    This. I write out my homilies in full and usually run about 8-9 minutes. On Palm Sunday I kept it under 6 minutes. If I preached from bullet points I am sure I would end up tacking on an extra five minutes.

    SponsaChristi, I'm wondering how a vigil w/no baptisms managed to go 3.5 hours. Ours only went 3 and we did all the OT readings, each with a responsorial psalm, and had 14 baptisms and about the same number of receptions/confirmations. I'm not criticizing or anything, but just curious. Was there a lot of additional music?
  • Some priests can pull off a long spellbinding homily, but 95% should stick to 5-15 minutes. Usually a 20+ minute sermon has me writhing in my seat and praying to God to intervene and end it. I'm not claiming that's a virtue.

    I have been trying to think of the things I liked about Francis' pontificate and I'm happy to add the guidance he gave quoted above.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,710
    @fcb I assume that @SponsaChristi had a 1962 or earlier vigil. But if you do the full tracts in the NO and have a very full house for communion, that can do it.

    Monsignor R. Michael Schmitz, the vicar general of the Institute of Christ the King (alas, essentially confined to Europe as he’s been provincial of the German-speaking countries for some time) is one of the few whom I can trust to preach for twenty minutes, in three or four languages (German, English, French, quite possibly Italian) without difficulty, with just a few cues on an index card before him in the pulpit.

    @a_f_hawkins that instruction did sometimes happen during Mass, but it was not a homily or sermon in the way that we expect priests to preach routinely, ideally originally, for some length of time, without reading any prepared text (in the way that the Rituale Romanum provides for an exhortation before marriage, in the editions prepared for various languages/countries) or to say any set of prayers such as the Lord’s Prayer, the Ave Maria, and the Gloria Patri or Apostles’ Creed with the faithful, each and every time that the pastor goes to the pulpit. A homily is not a sermon, and neither are catechetical exactly. They overlap, and reminders of doctrinal and other fundamentals from the pulpit are important, but going through the commandments or the first part of the CCC is not what preaching is for. And modern forms of exegesis are not appropriate either (especially when the priest half-remembers something learned in the 1980s, when scholarship has moved on, or when it goes over our heads). Fr Gabriel Thomas Mosher, OP puts it well: Preaching is supposed to be ordered primarily to moving the will to the good, whereas teaching is supposed to be ordered primarily to moving the intellect to the truth.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • francis
    Posts: 10,978
    Preaching is supposed to be ordered primarily to moving the will to the good, whereas teaching is supposed to be ordered primarily to moving the intellect to the truth.
    Very well put.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
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  • GambaGamba
    Posts: 586
    All depends on the preacher. I have heard hour+-long sermons that kept everyone hanging on each word. I have heard 5-minute meanderings that made me long for heaven, and not in a positive way.

    I wish that pastors would consider the audience more. The parents with toddlers don’t really want 25 minutes of talking. The old folks don’t care about current pop culture and the young ones don’t know any 70s TV.

    Just spend 5-7 minutes on the texts of the day and teach us what the Spirit is saying to the Church in the introit, the OT reading, the postcommunion….

    Shoot me, but Rahner’s homilies are the example par excellence.
  • trentonjconn
    Posts: 698
    Usually a 20+ minute sermon has me writhing in my seat and praying to God to intervene and end it. I'm not claiming that's a virtue.


    Glad I'm not alone.
  • Padster
    Posts: 47
    I notice the rustle of sweet papers every time the homily arrives.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW tomjaw
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 12,002
    Having studied music at a Protestant college, the ministerial candidates were given courses in effective sermon preparation and in preaching. Do Catholic seminarians have such courses? Many are so bad at it I do wonder, at times.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
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  • cesarfranck
    Posts: 167
    Our priest "preaches" for about thirty minutes. He must have an internal alarm as mass begins at 10am and he always finishes by 10:47am. Thus, I have to be very judicious with music. Mass always ends at 11:15am.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • CharlesSA
    Posts: 168
    Ours are maybe 10-15 minutes, no matter which of the 3 of our priests (FSSP) are preaching.

    Even before having kids, I always hated listening forever when it wasn't even a very inspiring or well-spoken homily. I think there are very few priests - today at least - who I would not struggle to listen to for more than 10-15 minutes.

    Now with a toddler I want to listen even less. This is just my opinion, and I think others - especially in different stages of their faith and/or in different vocations - could or even should disagree. I don't go to Mass to hear anyone talk. Don't get me wrong - I normally am glad to have heard a few minutes of preaching, or to have heard this or that phrase to ponder a bit. But I just don't have the patience anymore to really listen. I don't mean to say that my attitude is right or even good, but there it is.

    I wish priests would just have a better idea of the quality - or lack thereof - of their speaking. Unless they are very sure they are really captivating a great majority of the congregation for the whole homily, they should keep their homilies around 10 minutes, give or take. Anything more than that, for better or for worse, is just too much for most people to really handle well.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,991
    Some priests put too many topics into a homily, but they would do better to organize their preaching and save some of those valuable points for use in another year.
    Thanked by 2cesarfranck tomjaw
  • PaxMelodious
    Posts: 447
    Do we, as directors of music and therefore people who are paid to make liturgy go well, have the right to talk to our bosses (cordially of course) about preaching which is perhaps overly lengthy or rambly?


    If you are paid staff - then, NO, not unless you are specifically asked. You're on the team and you need to be on-side (unless their behaviour becomes illegal or immoral, in which cases there are reporting channels you need to use.) You are paid to take responsibility for aspects of liturgy, as determined by the pastor. I've never heard of these aspects including the preaching (or the flowers, or the children's ministry, or the cleaning, or whatever).

    Many church musicians would rail against the idea that they are responsible even for "making liturgy go well", and confine themselves to "making the music part of liturgy go well".

    Of course if you are a volunteer or parishioner, things are totally different.

    Also, beware of absolutely rules about times. They are culturally-specific. Eg In parts of Africa, Mass lasting less than 2 hours would be seen as deeply irreverent. In most of Ireland, Mass lasting more than 45 minutes raises eyebrows - and if it happened every week, would be very poorly attended.
    Thanked by 3cesarfranck tomjaw Liam
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  • trentonjconn
    Posts: 698
    .
  • GambaGamba
    Posts: 586
    As an aside, the flattening of parish [para]liturgical culture such that Mass is the only type of service that ever happens is unfortunate.

    There is more bandwidth for preaching of different lengths and types at novenas, Rosary+Benediction, chaplets, parish retreats, heck, even (perish the thought) at celebrations of the Office. But instead the Sunday Mass is kinda the catchall, and the need to catechize the congregation butts up against everything else that happens at Mass (and cultural expectations of how long it should be).
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,528
    As an aside, the flattening of parish [para]liturgical culture such that Mass is the only type of service that ever happens is unfortunate.
    And as a further aside, liturgies other than Mass can be lead by a deacon, of which many parishes now have a good supply.
    Whether many are well trained preachers is a different question!
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,710
    @Gamba, the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest does its big novena before the Immaculate Conception feast and they suffer this problem, albeit where they would really not do it this way. At the seminary, and in some apostolates, they have a sermon, then benediction and the devotions (Litany of Loreto, chanted, novena prayer, procession to the BVM, Pothier’s Tota pulchra es hymn). But in the US, people don’t come out for that. They come only to Mass.

    Our novena to the Assumption, our patronal feast, is great: Immaculate Mary, then a sermon (maybe twenty minutes max), Hail Holy Queen, exposition, the novena prayer, benediction (I would suggest moving the Salve Regina from after Holy God to during benediction to make it more balanced), then Sing of Mary, Pure and Lowly (and I don’t like this choice, but it’s two verses only, so I deal).

    The last night is always wonky: solemn Vespers, sometimes a sermon (my pastor, if he preached earlier in the novena, doesn’t force us to listen to him twice), definitely the novena prayer, then procession with the Litany of the BVM, chanted. We only have evening Mass on major feast days as a concession to workers, so he is luckily not tempted to make everything a Mass.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
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  • FSSPmusic
    Posts: 337
    Because why have people come to church for an hour when they can come for two or three? Some preaching reminds the hearers of God's peace and mercy: it surpasseth all understanding and endureth forever. Parce nobis, Domine!
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,940
    Best sermon I ever heard was fifteen seconds in length. Middle of summer, and the air conditioning was broken. The priest (who usually just read from Scupoli's Spiritual Combat) went to the pulpit, said "You think it's hot here?", crossed himself, and returned to the altar.
  • Abbysmum
    Posts: 25
    Our parochial vicar is a fairly new priest (this was his Holy Week this year). He sometimes jokes with the other priest about the length of [the other priest's] homilies, which tend to be quite long (20+ min most days). Father Parochial Vicar says he was trained that homilies should be 10 min or less, or 8 or less when it's a long Mass already (such as a Palm Sunday). He does a pretty good job sticking to that.

    And guess what? His are the ones I can actually remember and they stick with me during the week!
  • RoborgelmeisterRoborgelmeister
    Posts: 224
    “I apologize for such a long letter - I didn't have time to write a short one.”
    ― Mark Twain
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,245
    Indeed. Chronically long homilies are become a sign of habitual lack of preparation rather than industriousness.