Evangelia Cantata: the gospels notated for singing
We Songs
  • Pax
    Posts: 11
    Over the last few years I've been making my own "white list" of songs that are acceptable for Mass and slowly purging selections that are unfit from my congregation's repertoire. One of the criteria I use is that "we songs" are typically not good -- songs that focus on us/we instead of on God and his action in us. Recently I was re-reading through the lyrics of Go, Make of All Disciples and was shocked to see that this is a "we song". The subject of every paragraph is "we". For some reason, I had always thought that this song was a pretty solid hymn. Maybe I just never paid attention to the lyrics before or just thought because it was set to ELLACOMBE that it must be good. Regardless, I was surprised and I'm somewhat loath to see it relegated to the trash heap. What are your own thoughts/opinions on the song? What do you think about "we songs" -- is it okay to use them? Are there any other "we songs" that you have discovered that surprised you? Do you have any other recommendations for solid hymns that I can use at Ascension and Confirmation instead of Go, Make of All Disciples?? Or any other thoughts? Thanks!
  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 1,030
    The difference here is, that the ‘we’ is collectively addressing God and pleading with Him: the lyrics read as a prayer. Does a text that, for example, would quote John 6:68 (‘Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life’) fall in the category of ‘we songs’? Is a text unfit when it elaborates on the words of Psalm 100:3 (‘We are his people, the sheep of his pasture’)?

    You can’t categorically reject lyrics that use the word ‘we’. You have to look at the theology of the text as a whole, the way it uses Scripture, how it relates to the doctrine of the Church. Recall that the use of ‘we’ can help ‘foster the unity of those who have been gathered’ (GIRM 47). Is it done in a way that is in conformity with the liturgy?
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  • Musicguy57
    Posts: 19
    I am not sure that a blanket rejection of "WE" is aligned with our response of "YES" to a gospel call. We are a community that individually and collectively respond to the mission of Jesus to be a people on mission. It seems to me that "we" can be a strong response ot "Ite missa est." The overall theology of Go Make of All Disciples, reads to me as being a strong response to the gospel.
  • davido
    Posts: 1,032
    Go Make of All Disciples is most definitely a “we” song and exactly the type of navel-gazing song you are correctly trying to avoid.
    Thanked by 2francis Diapason84
  • fcbfcb
    Posts: 352
    I do find the final verse of "Go Make of All Disciples" a tad Pelagian, but I think Steven's point is a good one. I wouldn't want to exclude Attende, Domine simply because it includes peccavimus
    Thanked by 2Pax LauraKaz
  • francis
    Posts: 10,964
    One of the criteria I use is that "we songs" are typically not good -- songs that focus on us/we instead of on God and his action in us.
    I think you are spot on in your observation. Texts that proclaim or brag about what we do as Gods people is not a good disposition. I don’t think you are talking about any song that has “we” in it. Perhaps you are addressing a general problem which tends towards anthropocentric as opposed to theopocentric. Unfortunately, most hymnals are full of the Anthro type.
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  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,865
    somewhat loath to see it relegated to the trash heap

    I would have expected Te Deum to be the first victim of this (rather odd) plan.
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  • GerardH
    Posts: 526
    There is a big difference between 'We praise thee, O God' and 'We congratulate ourselves'. The first is obviously fine, the latter should be avoided. Songs like 'We are companions on the journey' should be consigned to the ash heap of history.

    However, there is nuance; in the Invitatory psalm 94(95) 'we' address ourselves, not God. Is that anthropocentric? Clearly not, because it is an exhortation to turn to God; but out of context, some verses like 'he is our God / and we are the people of his pasture' would fit right into an 80s 'We' song.

    More pernicious, if you ask me, are the songs which put words into God's mouth and make the congregation sing in persona Dei - think 'I the Lord of sea and sky'.
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  • GambaGamba
    Posts: 585
    We can sing about us, or we can sing about God. To me there’s a huge gulf between

    “We adore your Cross, O Lord; we praise and glorify your holy Resurrection...."
    and
    "We are the young, our lives are a mystery..."
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  • PaxMelodious
    Posts: 445
    So "Holy God we praise Thy name" is bad, now?
    Thanked by 1Liam
  • Pax
    Posts: 11
    Thanks for all the great feedback. You all help me to think through this logic a bit. Perhaps the key distinction to make is songs which are addressed to God vs songs which are just talking about talking to God. For instance, the lyrics of Baptised in Water--

    Baptised in water,
    sealed by the Spirit
    cleansed by the blood of Christ our king;
    heirs of salvation,
    trusting his promise -
    faithfully now God's praise we sing.

    --talks about praising God, but never actually gets around to doing it. Neither is it an exhortation. In the case of these lyrics, it's simply a statement focused on us and what we are and what we (supposedly) are doing. The above lyrics could perhaps be a decent hymn if one simply added a doxology at the end.
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  • francis
    Posts: 10,964
    @pax

    Yes. Very observant. I agree.
  • GerardH
    Posts: 526
    Hmmm, I don't know. The same criteria would eliminate Through the Red Sea brought at last and the first two verses of At the Lamb's high feast we sing because they speak in first person plural and do not directly praise God in their text (even if the latter example says that we sing praise, just as your example does in its last line).
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Liam
  • Chant_Supremacist
    Posts: 104
    Of the various ways to restrict bad music at a parish, I suspect that vague textual criteria of one's own devising, applied individually, is the least effective approach to take. Not only can most decisions be argued and challenged, but challenges can happen over and over again for every decision, your criteria may be twisted against you, and your devisings don't necessarily have any clear authority.

    Practically speaking the best approach is to control the hymnal selection at your parish. Get something focused on music that has stood the test of time, and then make some considered exceptions for outstanding contemporary hymns (hopefully to include some parish favourites). After the resource is determined, it is what it is (for some time). You also outsource the nitty-gritty of hymn selection in a less challengeable way: your personal criteria have to be articulated and applied coherently and can be challenged easily, while the publisher's can be relatively opaque. The idea being that YOU understand those criteria implicitly but aren't obliged to articulate them in detail.

    This isn't a critique per se - it's very possible a given DM lacks that influence, or that the parish isn't in a place to purchase new books, and one does the best one can. These ideas about focus are also worth discussing and refining for their own sake. I just want to identify what I think is the most effective strategy and point out that the one in this thread may be the least effective.
  • davido
    Posts: 1,032
    Examples like the first verse of At the Lamb’s High feast are weak because you have to take in the context of the other verses. The rest of the hymn is very obviously reverent and God focused. I contend that is not the case with God Make of All Disciples taken as a whole.
    Thanked by 2francis Pax
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  • francis
    Posts: 10,964
    Yes… don’t do the baby with the bath water for heavens sake! Apply wisdom, discretion, and as always, be vigilant…
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  • OrganistRob320OrganistRob320
    Posts: 166
    Our Father who art in heaven hallowed be thy name.
    Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.
    And lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil. Amen.

    One could make an argument that the Lord's prayer is a "we" text. You cannot base things simply on which pronoun is used. It must look at the entire context of the text, especially in hymnody.

    purple!
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  • Pax
    Posts: 11
    There's an important distinction in parts of speech with the Lord's Prayer. "Us" is the object (direct or indirect) of each sentence while God (implied second person) is the subject.

    I started applying this "we song" principle because I noticed that very often (not always, as has been shown), songs where "we" are the subject are much less likely to pass muster than songs where "You, O Lord" is the subject.

    This is the same distinction present in the parable of the pharisee and the publican - Lk 18:9-14 if you want to look it up. Our prayers (and our hymns) are best when we are the object of God's mercy and not the subject of our own good works.
    Thanked by 2francis rich_enough
  • francis
    Posts: 10,964
    Our Father who art in heaven hallowed be thy name. Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil. Amen.
    in my view, this is the furthest thing away from we we we and is a cry to God to do everything.

    First is the praise of the Almighty.
    Second, we rely on you for our very substance.
    Third, we are sorry for our sins
    Fourth, we also forgive our brother seven times seven
    Fifth, Keep us from our own weakness and
    Sixth, keep the devil and his minions at bay.

    Isn’t this the perfect form of prayer?
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  • SponsaChristi
    Posts: 484
    I think as far as “We Songs” goes, the ultimate “We Song” is Anthem by Tom Conry (the same one who gave us Ashes). https://youtu.be/YmpqFvjEFqw?si=33-W2Qlt6vzOp6TY

    I will never forget the first time I heard this song at Mass. It’s so terrible. I don’t even know what parts of it mean. “We are sign, we are wonder. We are sower, we are seed. We are harvest, we are hunger. We are question, we are creed.” ???
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  • Liam
    Posts: 5,233
    "Anthem" indeed is the object lesson of impoverishment of lyrics and music, and anyone who programs it willingly but objects to the "archaisms" of classical hymn texts ... has issues to self-manage. The parody version of the refrain I learned (in choir practice) in the early '90s, which I've posted to these boards before:

    We are culled, we are frozen,
    we are stuck in here together,
    we are promised to tomorrow
    while we're in this bag today.
    We are corn, we are onions.
    We are peppers - just add cheese!
    We're the harvest for your hunger,
    We are carrots, we are peas(e).
    Thanked by 3CHGiffen CharlesW JacobFlaherty
  • francis
    Posts: 10,964
    “We are sign, we are wonder. We are sower, we are seed. We are harvest, we are hunger. We are question, we are creed.” ???
    hmmm... we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we.

    I guess a good name for these is weewee songs.
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  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,242
    I guess a good name for these is weewee songs.

    Oui, oui, oui.
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  • Liam
    Posts: 5,233
    wee wee wee in Pig Latin is eeweeweewee

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUBftlqlF3w
    Thanked by 2francis CHGiffen
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,996
    "Anthem" indeed is the object lesson of impoverishment of lyrics and music, and anyone who programs it willingly but objects to the "archaisms" of classical hymn texts ... has issues to self-manage.


    "Anthem" is probably the worst of the lot.

    More pernicious, if you ask me, are the songs which put words into God's mouth and make the congregation sing in persona Dei - think 'I the Lord of sea and sky'.


    Here I am, Lord
    She's over there, Lord.
    Lord I hear hear her whining in the night.
    Bitch and moan, Lord.
    That's all she does, Lord.
    Take her Lord, it will not break my heart.

    In a more serious vein, I have thought the problem with the "we" songs is that they are basically "me" songs. It's all about me, didn't you know that Lord?
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,233
    Charles

    And replace she/her with he/him and it works as well....
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  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,996
    Anything but they/them.
    Thanked by 3JacobFlaherty francis Diapason84
  • JacobFlahertyJacobFlaherty
    Posts: 360
    "And they went we, we, we all the way home..."

    This little piggy went to market
    This little piggy stayed at home
    This little piggy had roast beef
    This little piggy had none
    And this little piggy went "Wee, Wee, Wee" all the way home!
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • JacobFlahertyJacobFlaherty
    Posts: 360
    Anything but they/them.


    Perhaps Zee/Zehr or whatever linguistic monstrosity "they" decide to inflict on the world next.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW Diapason84
  • tandrews
    Posts: 188
    Your teeth are like a flock of eewees.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,964
    O my gosh Liam that vid is too much! I’m surprised Ppl didn’t complain that they can’t understand what she saying.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,233
    Ah, I just gave the pig Latin snippet from the fuller "We're In The Money" opening number of "The Gold Diggers of 1933" - people (1) were more familiar with pig Latin in pop culture back then, and (2) knew Rogers was just singing what had already being sung. It's probably the most famous use of pig Latin from Hollywood's Golden Age. Here's the whole number:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bm9hySTVKtY

    What's missing for audiences today is context: the film was released in May 1933, during FDR's first 100 days in office, and is a cheeky musical commentary on the banking crisis et cet. that the nation had just endured before he entered office and his administration's response to it. (Remember the bank run scene in "It's A Wonderful Life"? That's set just before FDR took office.)
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  • francis
    Posts: 10,964
    a cheeky musical commentary on the banking crisis et cet. that the nation had just endured before he entered office and his administration's response to it.
    timely. Perhaps someone needs to write the new one for todays banking conundrum that is presently having a heart attack.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,499
    I think fcb above has put his finger on the real problem: do we save ourselves? We aren't the problem, if God so loved the world. We virtue signaling, we utopians, we pulling ourselves up by our own idealism--that's the problem.

    We in a relationship with God isn't the problem but the solution.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen fcb
  • fcbfcb
    Posts: 352
    I similarly think "voice of God" songs are not themselves a problem. Some of the canticles in the Divine Office are in the voice of God, not to mention the Reproaches on Good Friday. Heck, we are often ventriloquizing God when the Scriptures are read in the liturgy. So if we don't like "Here I am, Lord" I think we need to find another reason to do so.
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  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,499
    It could be interpreted as 1) universalist and 2) predestinationist.
  • Felicia
    Posts: 128
    Part of the problem is a lack of clarity concerning who is doing the talking, and to whom, plus the fact that the "person" often switches without warning. "I am the bread of life" is one such song, where the voice of Jesus switches to the voice of Martha (or oneself, by extension) in the last verse.

    The Easter Sequence switches persons, but it is clear about it: "Dic nobis Maria ... angelicos testes ..." Likewise, "I heard the voice of Jesus say."
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,233
    And that happens in psalms, too.
  • Diapason84
    Posts: 100
    "Anthem" indeed is the object lesson of impoverishment of lyrics and music, and anyone who programs it willingly but objects to the "archaisms" of classical hymn texts ... has issues to self-manage.


    Let's not forget "Ashes" by the same so-called composer and its theological issues. I recall one wag aptly modified one phrase: "If all the world is ashes, then we probably got nuked."
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
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