Naughty Funeral Mass Propers, i.e. Mozart
  • edward.yong
    Posts: 39
    so back in 1991, there was a special requiem mass for the 200th anniversary of Mozart's death. it was held in St Stephen's Cathedral, Vienna, with the Cardinal Archbishop of Vienna celebrating. it was in the Novus Ordo, which is hardly surprising, but looking back, i realised they used Mozart's Requiem setting, albeit with a modern psalm/gradual and alleluia.

    wait a minute. that means the Dies irae shouldn't have been there. nor the 'dona eis requiem' bit of the Agnus Dei.

    does that mean in theory we could just take ALL the sung propers from the old requiem mass? :p
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,211
    At the funeral of the last empress, the Servant of God Zita, they skipped the gradual and tract to go straight for the Mozart sequence.
    Thanked by 2edward.yong tomjaw
  • edward.yong
    Posts: 39
    that's even naughtier, surely?
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,211
    Yes.
    Thanked by 1edward.yong
  • edward.yong
    Posts: 39
    now i'm wondering what they did for Otto von Habsburg's funeral, since all i can find online are the Michael Haydn Requiem bits.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,464
    I think this is the whole thing:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfSju3dPZ5c
    Thanked by 1edward.yong
  • edward.yong
    Posts: 39
    thank you! looks like they used fhe Dies irae as a gradual, and then had a new rite alleluia.

    anyone with thiughts on using the old rite gradual, tract, and sequence in the new rite?
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,211
    It’s illicit…
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  • edward.yong
    Posts: 39
    if the Cardinal Archbishop of Vienna's doing it...?
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,211
    It doesn’t make it less illicit. Whether I approve is not the question.

    For the empress above all, they should have done the TLM but for politics.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw Andrew_Malton
  • francis
    Posts: 11,175
    yup. doesn't matter if the pope is doing it. the rubrics are the rubrics. if you want tradition, come all the way back.
  • NihilNominisNihilNominis
    Posts: 1,066
    yup. doesn't matter if the pope is doing it. the rubrics are the rubrics. if you want tradition, come all the way back.


    It absolutely does matter if the Pope is doing it. He's the supreme legislator. That's why, in the olden days, a specialist MC would diligently observe the Pope's celebration of Holy Mass, writing down all of his deviations from the rubrics. This list would then be presented to the Holy Father for him to denounce, lest his lapses and deviations be construed as alterations of the law.
    Thanked by 3tomjaw Andrew_Malton edward.yong
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,211
    Right. Well, I mean I don’t know about the MC part, but this is why Benedict XVI should have changed the law.
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  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,235
    @NihilNominis that's actually badass canon-lawering. Are there readable accounts of this hard-nosed practice?
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,237
    Get familiar with the phrase "Alia aptus." The Dies Irae is one of those critters; now find the phrase in the rubrics and sing away!!
    Thanked by 1edward.yong
  • Andris Amolins
    Posts: 156
    The Pope did not object, therefore, it is legit. But maybe he does not know? Then somebody should denounce to him the naughty cardinal. Surely, the Pope will send the Tucho's henchmen from the inquisition DDF, to arrest, torture, and burn him."

    But going back to serious note, it is probably how they used to do it in Vienna and Salzburg (except the Alleluja). You have surely noticed, that many Requiem settings (incl. Mozart) do not have Gradual and Tract, or one of them. It seems that while the priest was reading the text of those chants + the Sequence, the choir sung only the latter. I even venture to say, that they sung it over the Epistle as well.



    Thanked by 1Liam
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,211
    it is a horrible custom to be abolished. In France, the expectation was that it would be plainchant (however lamentable the edition otherwise may have been) or omitted since it was a low Mass, and therefore the Sequence was also not set, c.f. the Fauré, about which my views are rather well-known at this point.

    But omitting the propers at a sung (solemn) Mass: delenda est.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw Andrew_Malton
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