Which Gregorian Credo is the best?
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,798
    i've been mulling over which Credo setting might be introduced to our OF congregation, and Credo III seems the obvious choice, given an englished version in the altar missal. But I seem to recall there was an assortment of opinions in some past threads here, somewhere or other…
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,311
    I. The authentic tone.

    I am partial to V for Paschal Time and on solemnities, but I’m a bit crazy and wouldn’t mind having four options (I for most of the year, IV for Advent and Lent, III a few times a year particularly if the ordinary is otherwise polyphonic, and then V as above).

    I should add that I do not like Credo VII at all.
  • davido
    Posts: 942
    Which is the best? IV, obviously, because it’s the most manly.
    Most popular? III, hands down.
  • GerardH
    Posts: 461
    Credo I is also Englished in the missal
    Thanked by 1Richard Mix
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    I would suggest Credo I as it is the authentic tone. Followed by Credo IV. Too many sing the modern Credo III all the time.

    We sing Credo I for Feasts and Eastertide, II for Lent and Advent, IV for after Epiphany and Pentecost, and VI occasionally. EF of course.
    Thanked by 1mmeladirectress
  • CantorCole
    Posts: 65
    @tomjaw

    What do you mean by "authentic tone"?
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,311
    The rest are a riff on it or are much later independent compositions, particularly III and IV which are mensuralist (as the French would perhaps say "à la base"; I've never found a good English equivalent; "originally" is the idea, but not quite the same…), but err, few people perform them this way, and there is a certain beauty to the Solesmes versions of this, the simple Salve, etc.
  • OMagnumMysterium
    Posts: 259
    Which is the best? IV, obviously, because it’s the most manly.

    found a great appreciation for Credo IV (Cardinalis) lately, especially the original mensural version. I've transcribed a version which isn't identical to the original sources, but is a whole lot closer than the Liber, and sings easily, like a nice march.

    Don't forget about the other cantus fractus credos: credo Apostolorum, etc.
    Cardinalis Spondaic (chant).pdf
    26K
    Cardinalis Spondaic (modern).pdf
    77K
    Cardinalis Spondaic.mp3
    4M
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,414
    I vote for Credo I.
    It is the only one ever used at Sarum.
    Thanked by 1mmeladirectress
  • 32ContraBombarde32ContraBombarde
    Posts: 138
    Not much love for Credo VI here. Not saying it's my favorite, but it's pretty spectacular with a drone, in a big acoustic.
    Thanked by 1Chant_Supremacist
  • AnimaVocis
    Posts: 150
    Our current schema:

    Credo I - Major Seasons/Solemnities (Christmastide/Eastertide)
    Credo II - Advent
    Credo III - Sundays of the Year
    Credo IV - Septuagesima through Lent.
    Thanked by 1Chant_Supremacist
  • Chant_Supremacist
    Posts: 32
    IV is the best, no question, but as far as what I'd introduce first, I or III
    Thanked by 2NihilNominis tomjaw
  • NihilNominisNihilNominis
    Posts: 1,021
    Our Credo cycle (always congregational):

    Green Sundays - IV
    Advent - I
    Christmas - III
    Lent - I
    Easter - III or IV
    Feast Days ad libitum (can be a great way to keep I & III fresh through the weeks of IV)
    Thanked by 4CHGiffen mmeladirectress Chant_Supremacist tomjaw
  • Chant_Supremacist
    Posts: 32
    I wouldn't mind hearing the rationale NihilNominis.
  • NihilNominisNihilNominis
    Posts: 1,021
    Sure! It partly grows out of what I inherited. For Green Sundays, my predecessor had taught Credo IV very well and used it regularly, and I had *no* issue with it being the regular Credo as (1) I already preferred it to the other settings of the Credo, and (2) the people sang it extremely well.

    Bear in mind, that is our *default* setting, but over the long stretches I will switch it up from time to time with one of the other two, to keep them fresh and to prevent too much of a 1-to-1 association of Credo with either a penitential or festival season.

    Credo I during penitential seasons strikes me as appropriate because it is in many ways the most austere, and also because I have always viewed penitential seasons as a time when the Church invites us both on the level of our spiritual lives, and in our liturgical praxis, to go back to basics and focus on what is most essential -- so we use those weeks to ensure that the "authentic tone" of the Credo is well-known by the faithful, 'going back to basics' as it were.

    Using it on the occasional feast day and Green Sunday helps make sure it doesn't come to carry too penitential of a connotation.

    Credo III fits well into the Christmas season because the primary chant Glorias we will hear during that season here are IX and VIII, and it lives in a similar sonority. It also pairs well with a lot of polyphony and later music, being more major-key, and less modal, and often invites polyphonic interpolation of, e.g., the Et incarnatus est on feast days of Our Lady, so it fits well into Eastertide, which tends to have more polyphonic content.
    Thanked by 3Chant_Supremacist CHGiffen trentonjconn
  • Chant_Supremacist
    Posts: 32
    I'm not disagreeing but I am interested that you'd want to prevent close association between a particular credo and a feast day or time of year. Why not rather encourage association and resonance with the people of your parish? Is this basically a kind of humility and concession to the fact that different places do things differently?

  • smt
    Posts: 62
    How do you introduce such things (an unknown Credo or a new Mass setting) to the parish? @NihilNominis you say your predecessor "had taught Credo IV"? Does that happen before or after mass? I find it difficult to find an occasion where a) you have the parish gathered and b) you do not distract from the mass.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    We would just get the choir to sing it for a few weeks and then the congregation will follow. I you live in the land of people must sing everything, every Mass, I would teach it to a children's choir, and then get them to sing it a few times.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,311
    Yes. We introduced Mass IV by doing it for a few Masses in October-November. They haven’t quite gotten it but they at least know the Kyrie well. I put out booklets for those Masses.

    I’d do the same with IX. I love Mass XI, it’s my favorite other than IV, but I would sacrifice it to teach a new Mass.

    Now YMMV. Our people are enthusiastic.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • RoborgelmeisterRoborgelmeister
    Posts: 174
    I vote for Cardinalis, having heard it sung several times with full throated participation (but with the caveat that where it is sung in Portland, Oregon is, shall we say, rarefied). Same place has also used, in the distant past, Credo VII, which is "dirt simple."
    https://gregobase.selapa.net/chant.php?id=7915
    This has come up before (2010), but the links are broken, so see this for an organ accompaniment.
    https://cloudhymnal.org/view/632/credo-vii-organ
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,311
    I don't find Credo VII to be simple; we always found it tough because the musical accents are in the wrong place with respect to the textual accent in a way that is not usually the case for formulaic, syllabic chant.
  • RoborgelmeisterRoborgelmeister
    Posts: 174
    There are AT LEAST two Credos that are enumerated as number 7. As to difficulty, to each their own.
  • OMagnumMysterium
    Posts: 259
    I only know of the Credo VII linked above. Where would I be able to find alternate versions? You've piqued my curiosity.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,311
    ^this. I'm only familiar with the one Credo VII.

    As to difficulty, to each their own.
    You know, I'm not always the easiest person online to deal with (I maintain, and at least one good friend from this forum acknowledges, that this is a defect of the medium leading to my real personality being greatly obscured), but at least I'm aware of this problem.

    So don't mind if I am taken aback by the tone.
  • RoborgelmeisterRoborgelmeister
    Posts: 174
    Some of the links in this thread are broken, but the information on Credo VII is there.
    https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/2690/credo-vii-not-a-typo/p1
    Thanked by 1OMagnumMysterium
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    We also have the two Credo from the Spanish Supplement to the Kyriale, https://mega.nz/file/mJxkFaaJ#GaElCkVh4XUev8A4z3XOm5CMFmwdDCVwPaAA7Tjju_8
    from here,
    https://www.verbumgloriae.es/recursos/libros/

    The Kyriale No. 714 Desclee 1961 has a 13th c. Credo VII. but the thread above has another Credo VII (not set by Solesmes )
    Thanked by 1OMagnumMysterium
  • OMagnumMysterium
    Posts: 259
    Thanks! The Credos fascinate me, and it's good to have another one to throw on the pile. I've heard there are hundreds of cantus fractus Credos in the Giunta Gradual and other books ~ 13-17th century. I haven't been able to find any pdfs of such books, but if anyone knows of any, please send them my way! I already have the Spanish Credos, but those are great to consider as well.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
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