Alma Redemptoris Mater Manuscripts Images
  • I am searching for manuscript images of the Alma Redemptoris Mater. They are mostly for demonstration, so it would be great to collect a variety of different styles and centuries (especially those which are most beautifully illuminated). I have been able to find two so far from Antiphonaries (one Dominican), and they both more or less correspond to the solemn tone in modern chant books.

    I would be really interested if anyone could find a manuscript of the simple tone. I don't know if there are manuscripts of the simple tones, or if they were just composed by Solesmes, but if someone does know, please enlighten me.
  • FSSPmusic
    Posts: 278
    See p. 181 for what perhaps serves as the basis for the modern simple tone:
    https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k11663659/f191.item.r=brevis%20psalmodiae%20ratio

    Solemn tone:
    http://www.omnigreg.at/wiki/doku.php?id=ant:2131
    Navigate the tabs at the bottom to see different manuscript images.

    There are quite a few images listed on the Cantus website:
    https://cantus.uwaterloo.ca/id/001356
  • GerardH
    Posts: 456
    I seem to remember a rumour that the simple Marian anthem tones, or at the very least the simple Salve Regina, were the work of Henri du Mont
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  • FSSPmusic
    Posts: 278
    I seem to remember a rumour that the simple Marian anthem tones, or at the very least the simple Salve Regina, were the work of Henri du Mont
    The German Wikipedia article attributes the simple tone to Du Mont, but the French version is more cautious on the matter, saying that the identity of the composer remains unknown.
  • Thank you so much, Patrick!

    Now that I know of those websites, I can easily find manuscripts for any other chants of interest. I should have just asked the forum before searching for a few hours on my own.

    A slightly unrelated question, but do you know approximately what year the oldest Dominican manuscripts are from, and what form the neumes are? I'm under the impression that Dominican chant went through less change than the other chant traditions. I'd be very interested to see the earliest Dominican manuscripts, if anyone can point me in the right direction.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,456
    The oratorian document linked above is dated 1634, and contains something very like the current simple Salve Regina. Du Mont seems not to have moved to France until 1639, which makes it unlikely that he influenced the French Oratorians, (founded in 1611).
  • @a_f_hawkins
    Very interesting. With the Salve in particular, I have often wondered about the origin of the simple tone. It seems to me to be extraordinarily well fitted to the words, even better than the solemn tone. It seems to me to be quite an inspired composition, so it is hard for me to imagine it being merely the result of a desire for briefer music.
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  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,770
    @OMagnumMysterium
    This would be a good place to start for the oldest Dominican manuscripts and Hymns. Last time I asked they did not seem to be online.

    When searching for early manuscripts,
    Here is the main combined index, https://cantusindex.org (Not complete!)
    Another index,
    http://gregorianik.uni-regensburg.de/an/#id/2446
    http://gregorianik.uni-regensburg.de/an/#id/2133
    http://gregorianik.uni-regensburg.de/an/#id/2131
    http://gregorianik.uni-regensburg.de/an/#id/2151
    and this,
    http://www.globalchant.org
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,770
    Is this of interest, https://www.jstor.org/stable/3295122
    Jstor has loads of articles, I have access if needed.
    Thanked by 1OMagnumMysterium
  • Interesting article, I skimmed through it, but it seems to just consider the text, and not so much the chants used with the text. I suppose some of my questions are biting off more than I can chew (or rather have time to follow up with the necessary research), but it's still always interesting to get the forum's insights.

    My wonderings about Dominican chant is from all my reading about the history of chant's rhythm. The Dominican chant seems very similar to the Vatican Edition in most ways, and it seems like Dominican chant has remained mostly unaltered over the centuries (correct me if I'm mistaken). So knowing the history of the "Roman" chant, it seems that Dominican chant took it's own separate trajectory, and I am wondering what that history looked like. Was the Dominican chant being sung in equalist rhythm while other monasteries were singing proportionally, or are all the Dominican records from later on? I am primarily asking to get Mr. William's take on it, but other thoughts are quite welcome as well.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • In fact, they do not have an unbroken tradition and their way of singing similar to the Vatican edition was influenced by Solesmes and Dom Pothier:

    https://www.academia.edu/4898113/_Medieval_and_Modern_Dominican_Chant_in_the_19th_Century_Chant_Old_and_New_ed_William_Renwick_Lions_Bay_Institute_of_Mediaeval_Music_2012_15_47

    In the XIII century, the dominican Jerome of Moravia describes ways of ornamentations in chant practice that involves some type of proportionalism and mensuralism.

    https://www.academia.edu/853498/Hyeronimus_de_Moravia_Ornamentation_and_Exegesis_in_Gregorian_Old_Roman_and_Byzantine_Chant

    In the XIX century a dominican named Bernard made editions of "restored chant" with different lenght values, he made this inspired by the "Tractatus de Musica" of Jerome of Moravia: "After discussing the Gregorian modes, Bernard proceeds to articulate a mensuralist rhythmic system which assigns longer and shorter lengths for individual notes and rests: to give a partial list, a diamond shaped note issung for “one instant” (unam instantiam), a normalsquare note is sung for “one tempus which equals three instants” (unum tempus, seu tresinstantias), and a note with a tail is sung for “one tempus with one instantor sometimes with two instants” (unum tempus habet, cum una aut aliquando cum duabus instantiis). After articulating a six-fold system of lengths, however, Bernard suggests that there can still be some flexibilitywith the rhythym due to the difficulty of exact measurement of musicaltime."