Prayer Over the Gifts
  • henry
    Posts: 241
    In the first degree of Musicam Sacram, it says that, among the dialogues to be sung, is the Prayer Over the Gifts. Is that "Pray brethren that my sacrifice and yours..." or the prayer that follows? Even though the Missal has music for the former, I tend to think it's the prayer that follows. Anyone know for sure?
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    One doesn't sing Orate, fratres so the likelihood of that having music is (while not impossible) remote.
  • madorganist
    Posts: 906
    I assume you're referring to 29c, which says:
    In the Eucharistic Liturgy: the prayer over the offerings; the preface with its dialogue and the Sanctus; the final doxology of the Canon, the Lord's prayer with its introduction and embolism; the Pax Domini; the prayer after the Communion; the formulas of dismissal.
    I don't read that as counting the prayer over the offerings among the dialogues. I think it refers to the prayer itself, which was historically said inaudibly even at Sung Masses, not the Orate fratres/Pray, brethren - Suscipiat/May the Lord accept, although there is notation for that dialogue in the current English edition of the Roman Missal as well as the Graduale Novum, using the same tone with recitation on la dropping down to sol for a few syllables.
  • GerardH
    Posts: 411
    The Prayer over the Offerings is what was called the Secret in earlier missals.
  • trentonjconn
    Posts: 541
    One doesn't sing Orate, fratres so the likelihood of that having music is (while not impossible) remote.


    In the OF, which is clearly what's in question here, orate fratres may licitly be sung, and music for it is given in the missal (which is not to say this resembles the traditional practice at all).
    Thanked by 2Paul F. Ford Roborgelmeister
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Ok.
  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 966
    Yes, the Orate fratres can be sung and the Missale Romanum gives the music:
    Schermafbeelding 2023-02-25 om 22.20.48.png
    1282 x 1194 - 137K
    Thanked by 3CHGiffen M. Jackson Osborn ServiamScores
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,371
    henry - by 'the prayer over the offerings' (or gifts depending on the translation) Musicam Sacram meant what had been previously called the Secret.
    It is important to note that GIRM contains the current authoritative instructions. MS was issued in 1967, it is applicable directly to neither the NO/OF nor the VO/EF, the hierarchy is an update of previous instructions on hierarchy, and has been replaced by a more fluid notion of 'progressive solemnity'.
    Thanked by 2Liam Paul F. Ford
  • henry
    Posts: 241
    But even the GIRM quotes Musicam Sacram. Pope Francis said in an address (sorry I don't have the source) that it (MS) is still the most recent binding declaration of the Magisterium on sacred music, and has not been superseded by a document of greater weight.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,371
    Yes, it is the most recent legislation covering music as a topic, but elements of the liturgy have been changed so that it is no longer a precise fit. GIRM and GIRL both have rubrics which modify MS, the strict hierarchy "that may not be sung if this is not sung" is an example. Also note that "the acclamations at the Gospel" does not refer to what is now called the Gospel Acclamation, which did not exist at the time, instead it means the dialogues
    A reading from the holy Gospel according to N,
    Glory to you, O Lord.
    &
    The Gospel of the Lord.
    Praise to you Lord Jesus Christ.

    However in the case you asked about, the former Secret, like the Collect and the Post-Communion prayer, from 1965 these were to be procalimed, preferably in song, rather than read quietly by the priest while the choir sang something else.
    Thanked by 2Chris Garton-Zavesky Paul F. Ford
  • henry
    Posts: 241
    I think it did exist because it specifies the Alleluia in the third degree. It seems clear that the first degree specifies the dialogue you cited above, while it reserves the Alleluia before the Gospel for the third degree.
  • trentonjconn
    Posts: 541
    I think what Hawkins means is that the chant preceding the gospel was not called a "gospel acclamation" at that time.
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