Kneeling when the tabernacle is opened
  • francis
    Posts: 10,703
    What is the correct posture when the tabernacle is opened to bring forward the reserve sacrament DURING the fraction Rite?
  • When the Tabernacle is opened, it is proper to kneel. In the EF and in places where the venerable custom remains to kneel when the Agnus Dei begins this isn’t an issue. The posture of the congregation is not to be so rigid so as to prevent them from kneeling.
  • PaxTecum
    Posts: 307
    I kneel at the start of the Agnus Dei in the N.O. Too. I don’t want to wave at anybody while Jesus is out.
    Thanked by 1CCooze
  • francis
    Posts: 10,703
    I don’t see anything in the rubrics about kneeling when the tabernacle is opened for the NO. Is there any documentation on this for either the NO or the VO?
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,992
    A. For the US version of the current missal, #43 in the General Instruction provides:

    43. The faithful should stand from the beginning of the entrance chant, or while the priest approaches the altar, until the end of the collect; for the Alleluia chant before the gospel; while the gospel itself is proclaimed; during the profession of faith and the universal prayer; and from the invitation, Orate, fratres (Pray, brethren), before the prayer over the offerings until the end of Mass, except at the places indicated here below. The faithful should sit, on the other hand, during the readings before the gospel and the responsorial psalm and for the homily and during the preparation of the gifts at the offertory; and, if appropriate, they may sit or kneel during the period of sacred silence after Communion.

    In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus (Holy, Holy, Holy) until after the Amen of the eucharistic prayer, except when prevented on occasion by ill health, or for reasons of lack of space, of the large number of people present, or for another reasonable cause. however, those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. the faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei (Lamb of God) unless the Diocesan bishop determines otherwise.

    For the sake of uniformity in gestures and bodily postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the instructions which the Deacon, a lay minister, or the priest gives, according to what is laid down in the Missal.

    B. For the TLM, there is this:

  • Elmar
    Posts: 502
    That's interesting, Liam!
    Quoting from your attached "Essay on Mass Postures" by Richard Friend:
    Liturgically-minded readers will easily note the similarity in Mass postures with the Novus Ordo and wonder why I’m advocating them; I am not. The similarity here [...] reflect rather the influence of the pre-conciliar Roman liturgy on the development of the Novus Ordo and not vice versa, since these postures predate the Novus Ordo: Fortescue’s Ceremonies of the Roman Rite Described was published in 1917; Lasance [...] O’Connell [...] Sheen [...] McManus [...] None of these authors could possibly have been influenced by the Novus Ordo, which was introduced only in 1969.
    [...]
    Although Bugnini may have fabricated the liturgy, he cannot be accused of making up laity Mass postures, for the evidence shows they are same as those espoused by pre-conciliar experts dating as far back as 1917 and perhaps even earlier. Rather, as far as Mass postures are concerned, I submit that the Novus Ordo postures (the licit ones described in the General Instructions of the Roman Missal) should serve as our historical reference when rethinking our own Mass postures because they reflect the postures prevailing at the time when the 1962 Missal was in force.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,703
    Thanks Liam for posting. Not looking for essays as much as documented rubrics.

    And the rub occurs when a priest goes to the tabernacle WHILE the Agnus is sung.
  • Francis,

    Well-educated opinion on the subject notwithstanding, the posture of the laity isn't regulated by the rubrics of the Mass as by custom. It makes Catholic sense to stand for the Gospel and to kneel in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament, especially exposed. The rubrics control what is necessary for validity.
    Thanked by 3WGS francis kenstb
  • francis
    Posts: 10,703
    So we all fall on our knees when the tabernacle is open, but we have been excoriated by some who think we should not do so
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,992
    Francis

    I merely provided that essay re the TLM because, as Chris notes, the posture of the laity isn't regulated by rubrics of the missal for that, but I thought it might be a helpful overview of practice.
    Thanked by 2francis tomjaw
  • francis
    Posts: 10,703
    Yes, concerning the TLM I believe the only rubric is to stand during the gospel. But I suppose that doesn’t hold true for the NO.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • but we have been excoriated by some who think we should not do so
    I’m truth, this should probably have little bearing on whether or not we do so. (Easy to say, I know. I have two men in my choir who are very dutiful about this, and they always warn me when it happens during rehearsal (deacon comes for viaticum or some such thing) and we briefly pause rehearsal, kneel, and then resume.)
    Thanked by 1francis
  • To paraphrase (I think) Fr. Rutler, if one has to explain to a Catholic why one should kneel in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament, he has already lost the argument.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,703
    Simple yes or no question...

    Do YOU kneel when the Tabernacle is opened?
  • Yes.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,703
    I am loathe to confess that I have been following the norms of each liturgy... (I really haven’t thought about this much until this person confronted us.)

    Novus Ordo - no
    Vetus Ordo - yes

    What does this tell you?
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,397
    DURING the fraction rite (OF) no one has any business to be opening the tabernacle. I am usually saying or singing the Agnus so I remain standing. But, reflecting on this, since the consecrated elements are already present on the altar I see no particular to change my posture because of the reserved Sacrament.
    After communion I kneel while the remaining elements are on the altar, and if they are reposed in a visible tabernacle until the tabernacle is closed, then I sit.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen LauraKaz
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,992
    "DURING the fraction rite (OF) no one has any business to be opening the tabernacle."

    Correct.
    Thanked by 1ServiamScores
  • francis
    Posts: 10,703
    Yet it happens often… during the N.O. very often.
  • Francis,

    This
    Yet it happens often… during the N.O. very often
    isn't really much of a defense of a practice, right?
    Thanked by 1francis
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,992
    It's a thing much complained of by liturgically minded folks: in the OF, recourse to the tabernacle to administer Holy Communion is normatively expected to be the exception, not common, because the norm is for the faithful by and large to receive elements consecrated at the Mass they are attending, and the Fraction is ritual moment during which no minister should be doing anything else. (I and others have been in parishes where recourse to the tabernacle was uncommon at least at weekend Masses; it's quite possible to achieve.) Then again, there are things people do on autopilot: another one of those would be waiting for the celebrant to receive Communion before beginning the communion chant, when the instructions are explicitly otherwise (that is, the chant should begin *while* the celebrant receives Communion.)
    Thanked by 1francis