Bishop designate in Phoenix.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    What do we know about his support for Church music?
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,941
    Resignation and appointment of bishop of Phoenix, U.S.A.

    The Holy Father has accepted the resignation from the pastoral care of the diocese of Phoenix, United States of America, presented by Bishop Thomas James Olmsted.

    The Holy Father has appointed Bishop John Patrick Dolan, until now titular of Uchi Maius and auxiliary of San Diego, as bishop of Phoenix, United States of America.

    Curriculum vitae

    Bishop John Patrick Dolan was born on 8 June 1962 in San Diego, California, in the diocese of the same name. He carried out his studies in philosophy at the Saint Francis Seminary and the University of San Diego (1981-1985), and in theology at the Saint Patrick Seminary in Menlo Park (1985-1989).

    He was ordained a priest for the diocese of San Diego on 1 July 1989.

    Since priestly ordination, he has held the following offices: parish vicar of Saint Michael parish in San Diego (1989-1991) and Saint Sophia parish in Spring Valley (1991-1992); director for the promotion of priestly vocations (1992-1994); parish priest of Saint Mary Star of the Sea parish in Oceanside (1996-2001), Saint Michael parish in San Diego (2001-2002), Saint Rose of Lima parish in Chula Vista (2002-2014), Saint Michael parish in Poway (2014-2016) and Saint John parish in San Diego.

    On 19 April 2017 he was appointed auxiliary bishop of San Diego. Until now he has served as vicar for the clergy (since 2016), vicar general and moderator of the Curia (since 2017).

    Within the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, he is a member of the Committee on Migration and the Committee for the Protection of Children and Young People.
    Thanked by 2Chris Garton-Zavesky tomjaw
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Do we know anything about his dedication to beautiful liturgy employing the treasury of sacred music?
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,941
    I don't know. I provided the information from the Bollettino so that the parish-level info might provide more information for people to consult their own networks, so that you might have more of a chance to get an answer to your question.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Caleferink
    Posts: 429
    Don't know about sacred music support, but he does carry a glowing endorsement from New Ways Ministry as "LGBT-positive," so while I know there are a lot more dots to be connected between that and music, it's not a good start.
    Thanked by 3MarkB LauraKaz ServiamScores
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,025
    Here's this, for what it's worth:
    https://faithfulshepherds.com/bishop/john-p-dolan/

    There doesn't seem to be much publicly known about him.
    Thanked by 1Chris Garton-Zavesky
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,939
    He's a spiritual descendent, via McElroy, of John Raphael Quinn, the late archbishop of San Francisco. Quinn's influence was responsible for the promotion of liberal bishops in the western US or to their transfers, like with Cupich, who became close to Quinn later in the former's career, and it's really Quinn responsible for these moves, even though Cardinal Levada did the final pushing within the Curia.

    The Brothers of the Little Oratory used to frequent St John's, and I have it at good authority that Dolan pushed them out. To put it mildly, this is terrible news, especially because Dolan could stay there forever if he wanted.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,703
    Dolan could stay there forever if he wanted.
    He may wish to stay their forever, but that is not in his power. He will remain in another place forever, and according to the writings of the saints, he has more chance of going down and not up...
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,025
    One secular media outlet's interpretation of the appointment:
    https://timesofsandiego.com/life/2022/06/10/pope-names-san-diego-cleric-dolan-to-replace-conservative-bishop-of-phoenix/

    "Dolan’s appointment would signal a change in ideology for the Arizona diocese."
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Oh dear.

    On the other hand, do we have any direct evidence that he's in favor of Bugnini-ism in Mass?
  • Elmar
    Posts: 500
    according to the writings of the saints, he has more chance of going down and not up...
    Whatever you may think of Dolan - and whoever, for that matter - this is not something that anyone who has due respect for the Devine Judge should pronounce, or even think.

    I doubt that any saint would agree to such a statement in the context of criticising a specific person; while of course it is a good thing to speak up against anyone who does wrong things, whatever his position in the hierarchy. But this goes too far by any measure.

    I do not know what was specifically alluded to by "the writings of the saints" (and I certainly haven't read a lot of those) but I would expect that a saint would say:
    - if you come to conclude that someone persists in grave sin, talk to him;
    - if you have no opportunity to do so, have other people know so someone else might do;
    - pray for him that he may repent;
    - pray that God have mercy on him at his judgment.
    But don't speculate on his chances of going "up" or "down".
    Thanked by 5CHGiffen M. Jackson Osborn Schönbergian LauraKaz ServiamScores
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,365
    Elmar is so right on this matter!

    'Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord.'

    It would be an easy thing for any of us to assume the upness or downness of this person or that who doesn't measure up to our mortal judgment of any person's extent of guiltiness. If in our eyes someone seems to be in danger of losing his or her immortal soul we should pray deeply for that person and not presume the mercy of our Father in Heaven. Judgment is for God alone, and we ourselves are profoundly guilty if we would presume to know the Divine Mind and its mercy. 'Let him [or her] who is without sin cast the first stone.' The parable of the Pharisee and the Publican is appropriate here.



    Thanked by 4Schönbergian CHGiffen LauraKaz Elmar
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Jackson,

    Nevertheless, if we don't presume that the person in question has the realistic occasion to spend eternity away from God, we'll never pray for him, and this is a different kind of presumption, a more dangerous one for both parties.

    Presuming to know that a person is destined for Hell may be a serious sin, but presuming such a person is destined for Heaven is equally bad, if not more so.

    On the other hand, saying "I won't go that way, because (so far as I can see) it leads to perdition" isn't judging the state of a person's soul, but rather the evaluation of actions. One can not die unrepentant, for example, and go to Heaven. Once one is dead, it it too late to repent.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Elmar
    Posts: 500
    if we don't presume that the person in question has the realistic occasion to spend eternity away from God, we'll never pray for him, and this is a different kind of presumption, a more dangerous one for both parties
    While this is of course true, it is totally beside the point in question.
    This holds for any deceased, and this is why we should pray for their eternal beatitude - and try to foster awareness for doing so! - irrespective of what we think about their lives in terms of holiness, or how much or how severe we believe/presume/guess they may have sinned.
    Thanked by 1LauraKaz
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,025
    I think some of this discussion is alluding to the apocryphal statements attributed to saints throughout the ages that the road to hell is paved with the bones of priests and monks, and the skulls of bishops are the lampposts.
    Thanked by 1Elmar
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    I suppose the short answer to my question about knowing his praxis in music is "No, not much if anything is certain."

    Unless someone has new evidence (say, for his installation Mass) or someone in either Phoenix or San Diego can chime in, Chonak, you may close the thread.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,499
    I used to sing sometimes in a choir at one of the parishes where Bishop Dolan was Pastor.

    The music didn't change very much before, during, or after his tenure. I don't have any inside knowledge of any conversations around sacred music during that time, but that was what happened--the status quo.
    Thanked by 3Liam Chris Garton-Zavesky LauraKaz
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,703
    @MarkB
    I do realise that the Spirit of Vatican II, claims that hell does not exist, or is empty and we are all going to a cosy heaven... I do not think that the Saints were wasting their time when writing about the four last things.

    Here is the original sermon of St. John Chrysostom, https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/210103.htm
    I do not think there are many among Bishops that will be saved, but many more that perish: and the reason is, that it is an affair that requires a great mind. Many are the exigencies which throw a man out of his natural temper; and he had need have a thousand eyes on all sides. Do you not see what a number of qualifications the Bishop must have? To be apt to teach, patient, holding fast the faithful word in doctrine see 1 Timothy 3:2-9; Titus 1:7-9. What trouble and pains does this require! And then, others do wrong, and he bears all the blame. To pass over every thing else: if one soul depart unbaptized, does not this subvert all his own prospect of salvation? The loss of one soul carries with it a penalty which no language can represent. For if the salvation of that soul was of such value, that the Son of God became man, and suffered so much, think how sore a punishment must the losing of it bring! And if in this present life he who is cause of another's destruction is worthy of death, much more in the next world. Do not tell me, that the presbyter is in fault, or the deacon. The guilt of all these comes perforce upon the head of those who ordained them.


    Also St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica II, II, q. 33, a. 4, Sed Contra. writes about the need to rebuke bishops.

    I may add more referenced quotes from the writings of the Saints.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    It is essential to distinguish between high-handedly and cold-heartedly (and smugly) declaring that (someone I don't like) is going to hell, on the one hand, and declaring that actions are contrary to the faith, rightly understood. You and I don't know the state of any soul as well as God does, but we don't know nothing. (That's awkwardly phrased, but I hope my point is visible.)
    Thanked by 1Elmar
  • Elmar
    Posts: 500
    Chris, I think that this is spot on: saying that actions counter to Christ's teaching can lead you to hell is one thing; speculating on probabilities pertaining to individuals is another altogether!
    ...no reason anymore for closing this thread...
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,703
    I see the writings of the saints are rather uncomfortable... having read St. John Chrysostom I cannot refute his arguments that are rooted in scripture, so I am forced to agree with his analysis.

    Everyone will get what they justly deserve. The sad thing for bishops is they are held responsible for far more than most. Do the words of our Lord about scandalising little ones not apply? When it is obvious they apply more than most to out shepherds?

    I accept that I will be held responsible for my wife and 9 children, I think about this responsibility frequently, because we will all be required to account for our actions, and those that are in positions of responsibility need to think about this.
    Thanked by 1Elmar
  • AriasitaAriasita
    Posts: 31
    Why is a positive rating from the LGBT community not a good start?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,157
    It came from a particular organization that has been the subject of doctrinal warnings from the CDF. This statement issued by the USCCB in 2010 has more information.

    Since no one apparently has information to answer the original question, I'll close the thread here.
    Thanked by 4CHGiffen Don9of11 Chris Garton-Zavesky sdtalley3
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Liam,

    Thank you for the information you provided. Thank you for providing the source of that information.

    Is anyone on the forum currently or recently in San Diego to know first hand what this bishop designate has been doing in regards to sacred music?

    We know (thanks to Liam) that he was briefly the promoter of vocations in the diocese. That might give us a thread to tug.
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