Common ground with non-Catholic worship leaders?
  • Dan F.Dan F.
    Posts: 205
    This question may not make a lot of sense to someone who was raised Catholic and hasn't experience very much non-liturgical worship. I am a convert from the Methodist church and before becoming Catholic after college very seriously considered joining an evangelical protestant church. For a few years I was drawn by the excitement, enthusiasm and "authenticity" of evangelical worship (praise songs, long sermons preaching the Word, etc.). It was only after I began being converted in my mind and heart to the Catholic Church and her traditions that I gained an appreciation and love of sacred music and liturgy.

    My uncle pastors an evangelical church in CA and has been performing in worship bands for something like 25 years. He met his wife touring with a college contemporary singing group and his high school sons are following in his footsteps. He's a wonderful, faithful, loving Christian. I had the thought recently that if he were to ask me about why I think Gregorian chant was the ideal for sacred music and his band completely inappropriate, I don't know how I could explain it. It seems to me that a discussion of sacred music necessarily begins with an understanding of the worship of God, and then of course what mass is and isn't. Only then does it make sense to talk about what music is truly suitable.

    What common ground might I have in talking with my uncle or with any non-Catholic who is similarly committed to the experiential contemporary scene and doesn't accept or understand the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass?
  • JamJam
    Posts: 636
    I can't think of anything...

    I'm a convert to Orthodoxy from anabaptist protestantism. If you want to talk about sacred music and worship, you have to get people to understand 1) that church history and tradition is important even in modern times, and 2) that worship music isn't about our preferences or what makes us feel good, but is about God.

    The music we use in the Orthodox church now grew from Jewish church music even before Christianity existed. It's been a totally organic process from the beginning, and will continue to be so. Modern-day evangelical/anabaptist protestants believe the Bible was freeze-dried, pre-packaged by the apostles, and fell into their laps from the sky, and anything in-between the book of Acts and their own personal discovery of the Bible is irrelevant.

    The only way I've ever seen someone really understand sacred music is when they come away from that understanding of the Bible to an understanding of the church as a timeless, yet physical and historical institution from day one.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    Ultimately, lex orandi lex credendi. The music they have is probably suited to their belief about what worship is and how man is to worship God.

    Are you trying to think of ways to make the musical aspects of plainchant comprehensible -- that it is unison song, without a recurring meter, in free rhythm, on a diatonic scale?

    Or ways to make the texts of the Mass comprehensible? I think the Mass ordinary could well be understood by evangelicals as authentic worship: see, for example, John Michael Talbot's popular 1979 album The Lord's Supper, made shortly after his entrance into the Catholic Church; it sets the texts in music that probably wouldn't be foreign to a contemporary praise'n'worship group.

    The biggest contrast is probably the gap between the sober brevity of the prayers in the Roman liturgy and, on the other hand, the emotional exuberance of large congregations singing P&W songs. Instead of trying to bridge that gap directly, I might point our evangelical friends to Jam's church: the Byzantine liturgy followed in the Orthodox Eastern Churches (and the Catholic Eastern Churches) is at times effusive in praises to Almighty God, and many evangelicals find it more appealing than the Roman liturgy.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    One issue I have with p&w songs is their repetitiveness. I feel that the constantly repeated chord progressions have a dulling effect on the spirit, no matter how "uplifting" the instrumentation may be. In contrast, chant is not tiring in that way.

    Similarly, the words of p&w songs are repetive. Simply compare the number of words in a popular praise song and the number of words of a gregorian introit and its Psalm. The theological content is correspondingly limited. Compare the theological concepts expressed by a Byzantine troparion to that of a p&w song. The p&w format usually cannot carry theological weight.

    Lastly, Gregorian chant is almost entirely Scripture-based. The images of its hymns are drawn from Scripture, its antiphons are almost always direct scriptural quotations.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    It's interesting to me that what Luther, Calvin, and others could not do to the Church after Trent, they easily accomplished in the U.S. after Vatican II. It's as if we looked at the Protestants and decided to play "monkey see, monkey do." If you look closely at many of those P&W "hymns" you may find some definitely un-Catholic teachings implied, if not stated.
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    Fodus on People than focus on God?

    What I learned after I became a catholic and learned about sacred liturgy, is that my faith and my relationship with God wasn't built on firm ground. It's like building a house on sand that can be wiped by storms and other disasters. The knowledge of God that He taught to us through our Church is the foundation of our relationshiop with Him. Without it, our faith can be like seeds planted and eaten by birds, very subjective and emotional without the solid ground. And I think many contemporary music by Praise band reflects that relationship. (The contemporary group people I know are very very nice people, and very people oriented. There is a good chance they will learn the the nature of sacred liturgy that is from God and people with differences including different tastes in music style can worship Him together as one community of faith if they are willing to humble and overcome their preferences in music and follow what the Church teaches us.)
    I think many Protestants can be drawn to the sacredness and the beauty of the Catholic liturgy as long as it's available. Scott Hahn's (who is a famous convert) book, "Lamb's Supper: the Mass as Heaven on Earth '" is an excellent book and shows how the sacred liturgy attracted a Protestant minister.
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    Kathy, just out of curiosity, have you ever heard P/W writer Chris Rice's "Untitled Hymn: Come to Jesus"? If you have or when you do, I'd be interested in your thoughts.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    Yes, I know it. There's not much theology there, is there? Is that what you mean?
  • mjballoumjballou
    Posts: 993
    Having been all over the map liturgically and denominationally, I have given this some thought.

    It all has to do with forms of worship. In a classic evangelical/low-church-mainline denomination, worship is primarily reading, instruction and emotional/moral uplift. In the old days, hymns worked fine for that, especially the Moody-
    Sankey variety which mimicked the popular genre of "She's only a bird with a broken wing" songs for a tear and an altar call. Contemporary P&W does the same. It's non-liturgical.

    Where the problem lies is the importation of that style (along with the ballads) into liturgical, especially, eucharistic, worship.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    If it sounds like something you can hear coming out the door of your local tavern, it's not church music.

    We used to have church clothes and play clothes. The line between them has been erased.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Yes, Noel, we used to have church clothes and play clothes. Now we have "barely" clothes.
  • Lex Orandi
    Posts: 8
    I'd discuss the common problem facing both communities today... the worst of the P&W world struggles with a serious "It's all about me" problem, just like the worst of current Catholic music. While I tend to think the evangelical manifestation of this is less insidious than the Catholic (I could be wrong), making worship focused on God Incarnate in a culture obsessed with self-help and personal empowerment is currently a struggle for both.

    Part of the problem is, the bulk of Catholic parishes your uncle might visit (and that he's doubtlessly received scores of converts from) doesn't exactly live up to the "ideal" of Catholic worship.

    Evangelicals (speaking as one, considering joining the Church) generally don't grasp the dissonance between what the Church teaches and what many of its local leaders and clergy profess. This fact is shocking to people who consider the Bible the only catechism they need, and rely on their pastors for genuine teaching. Most Evangelicals think the Catholic teaching is bad... This discussion is an opportunity to show that certain, ahem, issues facing the Church are not with the teaching, but infidelity to the teaching.
  • Lex Orandi
    Posts: 8
    And as to why chant/polyphony are better than P&W... they're not, in an evangelical church. The differences between you are less about musical style, and more about what happens at your respective churches on Sunday morning. I have no argument against any style of music in an evangelical church (what encyclicals are they breaking?).
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    "And as to why chant/polyphony are better than P&W... they're not, in an evangelical church. The differences between you are less about musical style, and more about what happens at your respective churches on Sunday morning."

    I wrote a long comment which basically amounted to this. Roman music is Gregorian chant. That's the roman rite. Evangelical music is emotive popular-style songs. That's their rite.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    It is not their rite. It is their acceptance of wordly things.
  • JamJam
    Posts: 636
    ...

    Sometimes I find that just having people listen to good church music is enough for them to understand there is something different and special about it.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    What aspect of P&W music are we thinking about? That it makes an emotional appeal? That it follows the conventions of the popular music of its era? We can see those characteristics in some of the bad old "black list" music that some of the faithful still like.
  • Dan F.Dan F.
    Posts: 205
    Thank you all for your responses. I tend to agree with Gavin and Lex Orandi, that a worship band may be fine for what is going on during Sunday worship at an evangelical church but is extremely problematic when imported into the mass. One thing that I've come to love in Catholic churches is that there is a fixed point for adoration and worship: the Lord truly present in the Blessed Sacrament, whether in the tabernacle or exposed for adoration, or upon the altar during mass. A band is usually stuck right up front and becomes the focus in order to lead the congregation. This bends our gaze inward towards ourselves rather than us approaching the altar of God together as His children. At an evangelical church there is a purposeful lack of a physical focal point. There is no tabernacle and no belief in the real presence of Our Lord, but also almost no sacred images or statues. When the band is "on stage" to lead the singing many people close their eyes to sing and praise God, thus the band can be less of a distraction.

    However, even when I was attending a more evangelical church, I sometimes found the music/atmosphere a bit manipulative. I could never seem to "feel" as joyful/spirit-filled as others. Nor could I shout out responses to the pastor's questions during his sermon. I would always pause a moment to think whether I really agreed with the statement before responding "Amen" but then it was too late! It could leave me feeling a bit unholy or not excited enough for God. I've come to appreciate the objective nature of the mass, where what happens at mass is above and even indifferent to my emotions. Some days I'm peaceful, others distracted, sometimes anxious and impatient, but Christ is still there no matter what intersecting my time with His eternal timelessness.
  • don roy
    Posts: 306
    my experience is that God speaks in whispers. P&W music is entirely too loud and in your face...
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    "For God is not a God of confusion but of peace." 1 Corinthians 14:33
  • tdunbar
    Posts: 120
    Like Dan F., I'm a convert with a Methodist background and found the wide range of hymnals rather disconcerting, both in musical values and in doctrinal basis. While Gregorian chant certainly should have first place in the music of the liturgy, there is another aspect that I found essential - The Liturgy of the Hours. Although we can try to persuade and work for more widespread use of, say, the Gregorian Missal, it is the Liturgy of the Hours that is the real unifying liturgical document, in practice.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    The Liturgy of the Hours, or as we Byzantines say, Divine Praises, has never gotten much traction in the U.S. Why, I don't know. I find Saturday Vespers to be the requisite set-up and lead-in for the Sunday liturgy. Only going to Sunday liturgy is missing half the action.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    tdunbar, great post, only "disconcerting" is too mild a term...loosen up, join the fray.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    Wasn't Sunday Vespers once a common practice at parishes?

    I'm under the impression that the option to offer Mass in the evening drove out devotional services formerly held in the evenings (e.g., novena services); that same effect may have driven Vespers out of its former place in parish life.
  • JamJam
    Posts: 636
    Great Vespers is certainly a huge part of Orthodox parish life! That's when the Old Testament reading is, which would make the 1st OF Catholic reading irrelevant. Vespers and Matins are preparations for the reception of Holy Communion. It's folly to dispense of them lightly.
  • tdunbar
    Posts: 120
    Frogman:

    "rather disconcerting" was a bit tongue-in-cheek :)

    At my home parish last night, during Eucharistic Adoration, the teens did various CCM (two Michael J Smith and another which I forget)..worse of both worlds, imo: while I enjoy the songs in their native context (e.g. my wife's evangelical anglican congregation, where they are done well..if one's going to do that sort of thing, one should at least experience some good examples), they just didn't fit. And chant which would fit is totally unknown there.

    I continue to dream of a place where the pew hymnal is the Gregorian Missal and folks regularly carry the approprite seasonal volume of the Liturgy of the Hours.
  • tdunbar
    Posts: 120
    very interesting parish in CA: http://www.uscatholic.org/church/2009/07/incoming-missal

    Saint Edward (http://stedwardcatholic.org/) is in Newark, California (5788 Thornton Ave), a suburb of Fremont, east across the Bay from Palo Alto. The parish has at least two masses every day and seven on Sunday, several of which are in Portuguese. Given the multi-lingual congregation (bulletin is published in English, Spanish and Portuguese), Gregorian chant has, perhaps, an additional unifying function there which is representative of its place in the Church’s liturgy as a whole.
  • Lex Orandi
    Posts: 8
    St. Edward's pastor gave an awesome talk at Colloquium this year... Actually offered very practical ideas about how to work in more of the Church's real music gradually and pastorally. I remember leaving very inspired.
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