"Immaculate Mary" instead of the Gloria
  • argentarius
    Posts: 68
    On Pentecost Sunday, a local parish replaced the singing of the Gloria with the singing of Immaculate Mary, during which the second grade May queen crowned the statue of the Blessed Virgin Mary. While I am certain some in the congregation would highly regard Father’s devotion to the Blessed Mother, is this not a liturgical abuse? Would it not confuse the people? Would not a better option have been to conclude Mass with the Final Blessing, then have the crowning, while singing a Marian hymn? Would it not have been better not to have the May Crowning on a major Solemnity?
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Yes to all
    Thanked by 2Liam GregoryWeber
  • CatholicZ09
    Posts: 264
    Honestly, why would anyone think that would be a good idea?
    Thanked by 1CCooze
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,942
    I agree completely with Francis.

    I will not peer into souls, but will add that I suspect a priest who did such a thing would likely prove immune to any negative feedback. If one were intrepid, one would first start by asking him questions (without very tempting but still snarky rhetorical barbs) about the reason(s) for this choice.
  • donr
    Posts: 971
    A horrible abuse.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Should these things have happened? The short but emphatic answer is NO.
    Is there any justification for them? um...... NO.
    Might someone try to advance a justification for them? I suppose. That justification will be called "pastoral concern".
    Can you do much about the situation? Yes. Pray for this priest and the children.
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,025
    The Order of Crowning an Image of the Blessed Virgin Mary provides that it may be done during Mass, but after the homily.

    Maybe showing that instruction to the pastor and suggesting that in the future after the homily would be a better time would be a wise approach rather than challenging him directly about replacing the Glory to God with a song. Approach indirectly by suggesting following the Church's own instructions for how to do a crowning during Mass.
    Thanked by 1GregoryWeber
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    You could say, "Father, I was caught off guard this morning when..... because it wasn't in our Missalettes that way."
    Thanked by 4WGS chonak Liam JL
  • PhilipPowell
    Posts: 109
    We live in a sad, sad world alright.
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,721
    The Gloria is not optional.

    No 53 of the General Introduction of the Roman Missal says:

    "The Gloria is a very ancient and venerable hymn in which the Church, gathered together in the Holy Spirit, glorifies and entreats God the Father and the Lamb. The text of this hymn may not be replaced by any other text. The Gloria is intoned by the priest or, if appropriate, by a cantor or by the choir; but it is sung either by everyone together, or by the people alternately with the choir, or by the choir alone. If not sung, it is to be recited either by all together or by two parts of the congregation responding one to the other.

    "It is sung or said on Sundays outside the Seasons of Advent and Lent, on solemnities and feasts, and at special celebrations of a more solemn character."
    Thanked by 5Nathan_the_Organist CHGiffen M. Jackson Osborn GregoryWeber Anna_Bendiksen
  • vansensei
    Posts: 215
    the ordinary is not ours to change like that. period, full stop.
    Thanked by 5a_f_hawkins Nathan_the_Organist Chris Garton-Zavesky CHGiffen ServiamScores
  • Nathan_the_Organist
    Posts: 434
    Serviam, you are 100% right. Unfortunately the GIRM means nothing to some people.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Nathan,

    It doesn't mean "nothing", so much as Tweedledum/Tweedledee's version: it means what I want it to mean for as long as I want it to mean that, and then it means something else.

    Studied ambiguity does that.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,371
    No ambiguity here
    GIRM 23. ... certain accommodations and adaptations are set out in this General Instruction and in the Order of Mass.
    24. These adaptations consist, for the most part, in the choice of certain rites or texts, ... However, the Priest will remember that he is the servant of the Sacred Liturgy and that he himself is not permitted, on his own initiative, to add, to remove, or to change anything in the celebration of Mass. †34
    †34 - SC §22/3. Therefore no other person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove, or change anything in the liturgy on his own authority.
    Thanked by 5CHGiffen ServiamScores Nathan_the_Organist M. Jackson Osborn GregoryWeber
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,499
    I have witnessed a lot of crazy, but this takes the cake!
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,366
    This was a gross and empty-headed inspiration which is patently illicit - if not blasphemous. At mass the only object of prayer or devotion is God Himself, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost. True, whilst our Lady and other saints are mentioned in the canon, it is only so that, God willing, their prayers may be joined with ours. They are not addressed, sung to, nor venerated. The Mass is entirely about God and the Persons of the Trinity. It is blasphemy to presume otherwise.

    There are, indeed, certain Catholics who just have to make every occasion they get their hands on into a Marian affair. They have a burning devotion that far puts in the shade the All Holy himself. There is a zealous moaning and groaning adulation, encomiums that have not their equal amongst any other devotions, nay, not even for God himself, as those directed to the BVM. I venerate our Lady quite regularly - but never at mass.

    There are even some groups of people who think that our Lady is a goddess. I am amazed that their bishops never disabuse them of this heresy. I once knew a priest who just couldn't say mass without tacking a Hail Mary onto the Universal Prayers.

    Has Argentarius reported this to this priest's bishop? If not, he or she should.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    I am amazed that their bishops never disabuse them of this heresy.


    Given what else the bishops do and don't do.....
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,371
    Jackson - In England we have an indult permitting adding the Hail Mary at the end of the Prayer of the Faithful, this was sought as acknowledging the title of England as Mary's Dowry, claimed by a couple of pious Emglish Kings. Unfortunately the rubrics are ludicrously vague about the Prayer of the Faithful, and all sorts of aberrations are heard. I was pleased to see that DW:The Missal corrected this.
    Thanked by 4M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen tomjaw PaxMelodious
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    How old is the indult?
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,371
    I can't find evidence of an indult, though I do recall we were told at the time that there was one.
    From a Pray Tell thread
    Paul Inwood says: May 24, 2012
    The origin of the practice dates back to 1971, when William Gordon Wheeler, then Bishop of Leeds, prompted George Patrick Dwyer, Archbishop of Birmingham and chair of the National Liturgical Commission, to introduce it. So from the introduction of the new Order of Mass in Advent 1969 until that time, the intercessions had not included the Hail Mary.
    Since that date, Rome has requested the Conference on two separate occasions (...) to desist.
    In our parish (which is in the (arch)Diocese of Liverpool, but not in England) we say the Hail Mary at the end of the PotF which we only have on Sundays, except in Eastertide when we sing Regina coeli, and October (& May in OT) when we sing the Salve Regina.
  • trentonjconn
    Posts: 539
    MJO, does this mean that you would oppose the singing of Immaculate Mary, Salve Mater Misericordiae, settings of Ave Maria, etc. at any point within the Mass itself (such as an offertory or communion motet)?
    Thanked by 1Chrism
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Quaeritur:

    Is a PrayTell thread a source of factually accurate information or wishful thinking?

    If Rome requested and Canterbury ignored the request, does that make the "bad" behavior legitimate?

    How is the Isle of Man not in England, if it's in the Archdiocese of Liverpool? After all, the controlling authority for lunar landings (and thus excommunication of astronauts) is the ordinary of the diocese where Cape Kennedy is located.
    Thanked by 1ServiamScores
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,942
    The Isle of Man was never incorporated into the Kingdom (and Parliament) of Great Britain, and therefore the United Kingdom. It's a self-governing Crown Dependency, like the Channel Islands. It has its own parliament - the world's oldest - internal laws, passport, et cet.

    Thanked by 3Chris Garton-Zavesky M. Jackson Osborn tomjaw
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Oversight?
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,366
    Trenton -

    I would indeed - but only because I believe that it is orthodox. Whether or not I would 'allow' these songs is irrelevant.

    I realise that some would strenuously if not vehemently oppose my understanding of these matters, so it's best that we don't get into tit for tat argumentation and let things be.

    Can someone, please, name a prayer, hymn, homily, or any such about God, his Son, or the Holy Ghost, which is as fervent amongst most Catholics and that is sung as fervently and with such adoring fever as 'Immaculate Mary'? Or, for that matter, 'Hail, Holy Queen'? It seems to me that something is wrong. As poetry it is patent drivel, and as music it hasn't a whit of worth. (Besides, no one over here can even get the refrain's rhythm right - in fact, the charm of the song lies in the misplaced accent.) Doing so would go quite a ways to giving it a smidgen of worth.! Another one that's done to death is 'Immaculate Mary' - it's almost, for some, as if the Portal or the Vessel had greater hounour that He who entered through it or was borne by it.

    Blessed be the Holy and Immaculate and Ever Virgin Mary, Daughter and Mother of Jesus Christ, He who alone was God from of everlasting.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,371
    Paul Inwood was very actively involved in the English liturgical scene in the 1960s and his testimony is reliable as to fact, regardless of where it is published. Indeed, I quoted it because it contradicts what I said about an indult, which I recall being told at a time when my involvement was just meeting my Sunday obligation.
    For Catholics, ecclesiastically we are now in the diocese of Liverpool. Before the Reformation we had our own diocese called Sodor and Man, Anglicans still do, in the Province of York. Both politically and ecclesiastically, a series of wars between England and Scotland in the 14th century resulted in a settlement of jurisdiction which has endured. Details would not be relevant to this thread.
    Thanked by 4M. Jackson Osborn Paul F. Ford tomjaw CHGiffen
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Off Topic: So, the Island of Sodor is a real place?!



    On Topic: In spite of the existence of a surfeit of options and, quite literally, hundreds of ways to pray the OF without violating the "rubrics", the Gloria isn't optional, unless there's some provision in the Masses for Children.... Is there?
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,942
    Best to think of it in Norse perspective as the Isles of Sodor (Suðreyar), of which Man(n) is a survivor:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diocese_of_the_Isles

    [deleted erroneous 'graph]

    In secular terms, the lordship of the island ended up as a fief of the English Crown (the Earls of Derby - the Stanley family - for a while), but the history is like a badminton game:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_of_Mann
  • Felicia
    Posts: 110
    Can someone, please, name a prayer, hymn, homily, or any such about God, his Son, or the Holy Ghost, which is as fervent amongst most Catholics and that is sung as fervently and with such adoring fever as 'Immaculate Mary'?

    "Holy God, we praise Thy Name" (At least the first two verses)
    Thanked by 6Liam trentonjconn CHGiffen M. Jackson Osborn ServiamScores Andrew_Malton
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,371
    [Off topic] CGZ in a way. The Isle of Man is the only remaining fragment of the Kingdom of Man and the Isles (Suðreyar) not integrated into Scotland. We do have four distinct Government owned railway systems on an island 30 miles long and ten miles wide. And run by a fat controller, seen here driving on one of them. :- https://www.iombusandrail.im/media/1406/dlj_4813-2-dlj-horse-tram-27-with-douglas-2018.jpg
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,942
    Immaculate Mary, in English, suffers from one odd thing that is a bit different from the odd thing about Holy God We Praise Thy Name: how to do the chorus (Lourdes-style or Augustus Edmonds Tozer-style*?). With HGWPTN, the two versions can coexist in the pews, as it were; not so with Immaculate Mary - if you grew up with one, you will likely be very jarred when you encounter the other for the first time, as trochees playing aural bumper-car with iambs (and they ain't anapests) in the pews is ... well, you provide the appropriate adjective....

    * Tozer did an English paraphrase with the different rhythmic approach to the chorus, as explained below the hymn in his edition of the Catholic Church Hymnal (1905) - note also the use of the term "chorus" indicating unison singing:

    Tozer 1905 Immaculate Mary.png
    1340 x 1802 - 647K
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,371
    [On topic] Today we sang, illicitly, a paraphrase (1978) of the Gloria by Francesca Leftly. We omitted the refrain, I can't remember which standard 8787 tune was used.
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,045
    Document the abuse, including the relevant passage in GIRM, and send it to the chancery. Find other members of the congregation to do so as well. Nothing may happen, but the priest is on the map as "trouble".
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,721
    Liam, I'm grateful that you've shared this scan. I've never seen that footnote before and I've always wondered why Americans sing it differently than in Europe. I went on a long 3-week Marian pilgrimage back in 2009 and I was very jarred the first time I heard it sung in europe (They sing a-VEEE rather than AAA-ve). I never knew why there was a difference—now I do. (And for the record, like the American way better.)
    Thanked by 3Liam Chris Garton-Zavesky PaxMelodious
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,942
    I am not sure if it was published any earlier than that in that manner, but with Tozer's name (found in some of the better-annotated versions of the hymn as the source of an alteration) and the hymn name I was able to use Google Books to find a source book and go to the relevant page, and take a screenshot of it. Thus, this variant dates *at least* as far back as 1905; the French hymn itself only dates to the 1880s, if memory serves, so it may be considered a relatively early alteration.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,371
    1873 by French priest and seminary director Jean Gaignet. Here sung in a French church - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3VpHjFJvDE
    As far as I can see, in Europe we begin the chorus with the third note of the bar before that indicated in the score above, there is no difference in the tune.
    Thanked by 2Liam M. Jackson Osborn
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Serviam,

    I completely agree with you, that Liam has performed a useful service in providing that page.

    On the other hand, how can a sensible, well-grounded, thoughtful, intelligent person such as yourself possibly prefer AAAH-ve, to Ah-VEH in this hymn?
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,148
    oy-VAY, oy-VAY, oy-VAY Ma-RI-a??
  • Chrism
    Posts: 868
    blasphemous

    :eyeroll:
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,366
    I had to listen to it three times over and was quite moved.
    As sung in Mr Hawkins's example it is a totally different paean than what is heard in this country, where it has all the dignity and mindlessness of a TV jingle. Also, the original rhythm makes of it an entirely different act. Americans, except Episcopalians, do, after all, tend to sing their hymns entirely too fast (perhaps inherently so in this hurried culture) - they are always in a hurry and have a limited sense of ceremony and gravitas.
    Thanked by 1Anna_Bendiksen
  • PaxMelodious
    Posts: 425
    Can someone, please, name a prayer, hymn, homily, or any such about God, his Son, or the Holy Ghost, which is as fervent amongst most Catholics and that is sung as fervently and with such adoring fever as 'Immaculate Mary'?

    "Holy God, we praise Thy Name" (At least the first two verses)


    Not even close, in my neck of the woods. When I've programmed it, anyone under 30 raises their eyebrows as if to say "What???".
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,721
    1873 by French priest and seminary director Jean Gaignet. Here sung in a French church - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3VpHjFJvDE
    As far as I can see, in Europe we begin the chorus with the third note of the bar before that indicated in the score above, there is no difference in the tune.


    AFH-- no difference in tune-- in rhythm and emPHAsis.

    On the other hand, how can a sensible, well-grounded, thoughtful, intelligent person such as yourself possibly prefer AAAH-ve, to Ah-VEH in this hymn?


    For one thing, "ah" is a much more comfortable vowel to sing high and sustain vs. "ée{h}"
    No doubt, though, me being raised with the American version has something to do with my preference.
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,767
    I felt a little sorry for our catechumens when they set out for Lourdes; to have a West Atlantic variant of a international pilgrimage destination hymn seems, well, a bit wrong-headed. Some varied accompaniments and a descant by Andrew Carter can be found in OUP's 100 Carols for Choirs , under "A maiden most gentle".
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,366
    The finest and most inimitable of all Marian hymns is one that puts all in proper perspective and does so with all appropriate literary grace and skill. It is 'Ye Who Own the Faith of Jesus', as sung only to the tune Den des Vaters Sinn geboren, found at no. 218 in The English Hymnal - and it must be sung at a ceremonial pace. All else is saccharine prose and pitifully uninspired tunes - in a word, astonishingly shallow dross.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen ServiamScores
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,157
    Coming late to the thread:

    My impression of Tozer's note is that he is interpreting the Latin according to classical pronunciation, with a strong distinction between long vowels and short vowels, and he wants to give the "A-" in "Ave" a longer note to suit the long vowel. This is probably not really ideal for us Catholics who pronounce Latin with an accent-based pronunciation.
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,942
    "This is probably not really ideal for us Catholics who pronounce Latin with an accent-based pronunciation."

    I am not aware of many American Catholics in the pews who'd notice it being less than ideal for that reason. We just have the customary version that's been passed down to that in that form, just like Brahmin matrons just had their hats (Cleveland Amory "Proper Bostonians" reference).
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