Pentecost Day Readings on Saturday
  • denroden
    Posts: 22
    Do many churches use the Pentecost Day readings for the Saturday Mass? Our pastor wants to do that for the reason that the Saturday parishioners won't be at the Sunday Mass and will therefore miss the Sunday readings and sequence.

    The Ordo has the interesting instruction:

    “The Pentecost Sequence, Veni, Sancte Spiritus, obligatory on Pentecost Sunday, may be omitted at the Vigil; if the Vigil, however, for pastoral reasons, makes use of the readings (no. 63) of Pentecost Day, the Sequence should be sung.”

    I guess that's included under "pastoral reasons". Curious if others have used the same readings for both days.
  • CatholicZ09
    Posts: 264
    I've experienced both where the Vigil readings are read at the Vigil (and Sequence omitted), and I've heard the Sunday readings read at the Vigil (and Sequence sung).

    "Pastoral reasons" is basically an umbrella statement that opens up a lot of unwanted possibilities (at least IMHO).
    Thanked by 3denroden a_f_hawkins CHGiffen
  • davido
    Posts: 873
    Remember that your Saturday evening mass is usually an “anticipated mass of Sunday,” not a vigil as it is Oren colloquially called. So it is not extraordinary to use the readings of Sunday - as you do every other weekend - for Pentecost.

    A “vigil mass” in the Roman Rite is a longer service with more OT readings, meditating on the history of salvation in regard to the feast. Usually sort of penitential in character. Pentecost has such a vigil, but that doesn’t mean that the Saturday anticipated mass has to use the vigil texts. If the liturgical day ends after sundown, then the anticipated mass is more appropriate, much in the way the old Holy Week services can be celebrated in the morning.
    Thanked by 1WGS
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    The situation is, if I recall correctly, different in the OF from the EF. Until 1969, a vigil was distinct from an anticipated Mass. Pentecost is a notable exception to this rule, however, in that it has its own vigil readings. I can’t fathom Davido’s comment about the anticipated Mass, but I believe he describes the current rubrics correctly: although there is a separate vigil provided, as with many aspects of the OF, one may apparently forego the prescribed Mass in favor of something else, “for pastoral reasons”.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,371
    Some dioceses insist on the readings 'of the day' for "pastoral reasons", ours does. Others insist on the Vigil readings, for "pastoral reasons" ! I disagree with the idea that there is pastoral advantage in short changing the parishoners. It isn't allowed at Easter or Christmas, why would it be appropriate on other days? The argument is shown to be false by the provision that the Obligation can be satisifed in anticipation by any Mass text, even by attending a wedding (at least so I am told, I would be happy to see it disproved).
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,942
    The readings for Midnight Mass can be used for any Mass of Christmas, including the Vigil. (Which is a shame IMO.) The treatment of the Pentecost Vigil in the OF has been evolving.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    (Autocorrect has more stamina than I do. Will try again later from different computer)
  • denroden
    Posts: 22
    Thanks! Although I prefer the vigil readings, it is good to know that his option is still valid. He also uses the midnight readings for all Christmas Masses, Eve and Day. Then there's the complication of those scrutinies for years B and C...
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,371
    This for the shepherd, not the sheep; The pastoral reason is avoiding preparing more than one sermon.
    Thanked by 3denroden Liam eft94530
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,371
    Where are these options for subsitution stated? Our diocesan Ordo lists the Masses and says 'each proper' at Christmas, and simply omits the Pentecost Vigil.
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,942
    AFH

    That was my surmise, fwiw.
  • Caleferink
    Posts: 429
    @a_f_hawkins
    Where are these options for subsitution stated? Our diocesan Ordo lists the Masses and says 'each proper' at Christmas, and simply omits the Pentecost Vigil.

    Lectionary for Mass, no. 13ABC: The Nativity of the Lord: At the Vigil Mass: "These readings are used on the evening of December 24, either before or after Evening Prayer I of Christmas. The texts that follow may also be used for Masses on Christmas Day, with the option of choosing from one or another of the three sets of readings according to the pastoral needs of each congregation."

    Compare to Lectionary no. 62: Pentecost Sunday: At the Vigil Mass, which states simply: "These readings are used at Saturday Evening Mass celebrated either before or after Evening Prayer I of Pentecost Sunday."

    So it sounds to me like it is permitted to, for a popular example, use the Midnight Mass readings at the Christmas Eve Mass. It also sounds to me like that is a particular exception to the rule made for Christmas.

    This for the shepherd, not the sheep; The pastoral reason is avoiding preparing more than one sermon.

    No purple. This is frequently the reason given.
    Thanked by 1a_f_hawkins
  • EvaS
    Posts: 19
    What I've learned from priests:

    1) If one wants to keep the Saturday evening Mass short and straightforward, then have it as an anticipated Mass and use the readings and prayers from Pentecost Sunday. In that case, the Sequence should be included. Also, the Gloria should be sung after the Kyrie, before the readings, as on Sundays.

    2) If one wants to celebrate the Saturday evening Mass as a Pentecost Vigil, then use the readings and prayers for the Vigil. The extended form has four OT readings, each of which is followed by a psalm and a prayer. If the short form is preferred, then choose one of the OT readings but that reading should be followed by the psalm that correspond to the 4th reading, i.e. Psalm 104. The Gloria is sung after the OT reading(s). The Sequence is not sung.

    3) The Roman Missal is not very clear about the short form.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,371
    It seems to me to be a confused mess - (my emphases)
    US Missal p111. (August 15, 2010)
    UNIVERSAL NORMS ON THE LITURGICAL YEAR AND THE CALENDAR
    §11. Solemnities are counted among the most important days, whose celebration begins with First Vespers (Evening Prayer I) on the preceding day. Some Solemnities are also endowed with their own Vigil Mass, which is to be used on the evening of the preceding day, if an evening Mass is celebrated.

    But OTOH these Norms were approved on Feb 14 1969. The Missal is based on the 3rd typica approved in 2000, but always dated 2002 !? The US Lectionary is also 2002, I think. Which of these has precedence?

    US Missal p.447
    At the Vigil Mass
    Extended form
    This Vigil Mass may be celebrated on the Saturday evening, either before or after First Vespers (Evening Prayer I) of Pentecost Sunday.
    1. In churches where the Vigil Mass is celebrated in an extended form, this may be done as follows.
    2. a) If ...
    US Missal p.451
    At the Vigil Mass
    Simple form
    This Mass is used on the Saturday evening, either before or after First Vespers (Evening Prayer I) of Pentecost Sunday.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,371
    EvaS - according to my hand missal in England, the shortest and simplest Saturday choice is the Simple Vigil. It is a normal Mass, Gloria as normal, choice among the four for the OT reading, no sequence.
  • MichaelRaney
    Posts: 28
    Our parish held the extended Vigil of Pentecost. Four OT readings, then the Gloria, then the Epistle, Alleluia and Gospel.
  • Nathan_the_Organist
    Posts: 434
    Michael, in the extended vigil, how does it start? Could you give the basic outline of the mass?
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,371
    The extended vigil can be extended! by adding Vespers, which changes the way Mass starts drastically, but ignoring that :-
    [EDITED attachment]
    PVX.docx
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    Thanked by 3Chris Garton-Zavesky Nathan_the_Organist CHGiffen
  • MichaelRaney
    Posts: 28
    Yes, we followed as hawkins posted. We had considered combining Vespers, but decided against it as it was quickly approaching.
    Thanked by 1Nathan_the_Organist
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    The Ordo has the interesting instruction:

    What authority does that little Ordo book have ?
    Unless it is quoting GIRM or liturgical book rubrics,
    .. dare I say zero ?
    .. and can I also say it is Cliff Notes for priests ?
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    It's not Cliff Notes, no. It guides and reminds the priest (and even those of us laymen who pray the Office) which specific choices are proper for a particular day.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,704
    What authority does that little Ordo book have ?

    Well that depends, if it is the ordo published by the diocese it does have force. It tells you the local changes to the calendar, it tells you the solemnities. It should be written with the GIRM and Rubrics in mind so it has equal force.

    Now if you attend the E.F. the local diocese does not produce a relevant ordo, so you end up having to follow the Latin Mass Society one or the FSSP or Institute etc. Hopefully taking into account the modifications needed to follow the local calendar.
    Thanked by 2Andrew_Malton a_f_hawkins
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