Off-topic comments from other discussions
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,157
    (1) About the "moral reasoning":

    The moral question before us is not affected by whether the body was stored in a cooler in 1975 or the other specifics in the "grisly" article. Surely you don't think that using fetal cell lines from an abortion becomes OK if those specifics were modified.

    (2) The comments which I moved were not about the original topic (organ music during vaccinations).
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  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    It's now being debated that vaccines should be mandatory for Mass attendance... slippery slope or wise decision making?

    https://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2021/02/19/churches-mandate-covid-vaccine-coronavirus-240024
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  • davido
    Posts: 873
    Seems pretty immoral to me to restrict access to the sacraments based on medical records.
    Thanked by 6Elmar irishtenor Caleferink ServiamScores tomjaw CCooze
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,025
    Soon from Pope Francis, apostolic exhortation Vaccini Laetitia, on the joy of being vaccinated.
    Thanked by 5CharlesW Nathan_the_Organist irishtenor ServiamScores tomjaw
  • Elmar
    Posts: 500
    In the first place, vaccination was promoted as tool to achieve group immunity so that the pandemic can turn into an endemic disease; now it's being discussed as a means of becoming more equal than others...
    I very much dislike the idee (hope this won't ever happen) that my parish might ask me to share personal medical information as a requirement to resume choir rehearsals; more so as I am not even an employee but a contractor.

    Doing so for people in the pews is an absolute no-go.
    Thanked by 3irishtenor tomjaw CCooze
  • Caleferink
    Posts: 429
    At least in the USA, I'm pretty sure requiring employees/contractors to disclose medical information like that is illegal. I'm positive it would be likewise illegal to require church-goers to disclose such information.
    Thanked by 3tomjaw Elmar CCooze
  • Schönbergian
    Posts: 1,063
    I am entirely in favour of mass vaccination for everyone that can reasonably take a vaccine - and entirely opposed to this idea.
    Thanked by 3Liam Elmar CHGiffen
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,721
    In the UK they are already publicly contemplating "vaccination passports" to permit you to move around / participate in public events. It's coming, y'all.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,704
    In the UK they are already publicly contemplating "vaccination passports" to permit you to move around / participate in public events. It's coming, y'all.


    This is popular, at the moment. The problem is getting it to work, and not contravene the various medical acts... While this is tempting to some people that like control it will not work.
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  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,721
    While this is tempting to some people that like control it will not work.


    I sure hope you're right. But then again, I never thought I'd see the day when all americans were masked everywhere they went either...
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,371
    I saw a few days ago that Switzerland had passed a law banning face covering in public --- but it turned out to be a ban on the burqa.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw Elmar
  • Elmar
    Posts: 500
    People seem so desperate for a beer in a pub that they are litteraly willing to pay with their first-born rights medical privacy for it. Even in Germany!
    Thanked by 2tomjaw CCooze
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    I'm not opposed to vaccines (in principle) but these vaccines are all problematic to one degree or another, and the passport is clearly out of bounds. How many will willingly swallow it, however, on the grounds that "it shouldn't be political".

    English common law has a foundational idea that an accusation must be demonstrated to be true by the accuser. Applying this simple idea to vaccine passports makes them an abomination.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    I am a bit torn about the vaccine thing to begin with. Locally, the health dept. is short on vaccines so all you can do is sign up for one and wait. Because of very cold temps required for storage, they have discontinued the Pfizer vaccine and settled on Moderna. I hear it can have some nasty side effects. Some of the Catholic bloggers and writers have issues with the J&J vaccine, or so I have heard. It is not available locally at this time.
    What to do? Retreat from society and take elderberry extract?
    Thanked by 1Chris Garton-Zavesky
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,152
    Charles, the USCCB has stated that both the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines are licit to receive. I can only tell you my own experience. I have taken both doses of the Moderna vaccine and the only side effect I've had was a sore shoulder for a few days. Although, the CEO of the local Community Health Clinic tells me that for some people, the second dose is much worse than the first, she still encourages everyone to take the vaccine.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW Schönbergian
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,704
    The Pharisees also followed the letter of the law, and were not considered blameless. In fact Our Lord and Saviour criticised them for only following the letter of the law.
    Thanked by 2Chris Garton-Zavesky CCooze
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,371
    I have had two shots of the Pfizer vaccine. Within my cohort, over 80 + front line health and care staff, free jabs now at 86% take up.
    Slightly sore, as in I could feel it if I poked it, for about 36 hours.
    I need to take more elderberry extract, particularly as I forgo my (1 Tim. 5:23) half glass of Madiera on Lenten Fridays.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW CHGiffen
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,150
    I had Pfizer inoculations on February 5th & 26th, with no side effects (I could tell the following day that I had had a shot, but it never hurt), and now 14 days past the second injection, I should be at maximum immunity.
    Since it is Lent, I've refrained from injecting my frequent giant-size navel oranges with vodka for a screwdriver fruit with dinner.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,152
    tomjaw, are you equating the U.S. bishops with the Pharisees?
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,704
    I think that would be an insult to the Pharisees...

    I have no problem with the vaccine per say, it is safer than eating peanuts but not as safe as drinking a glass of water. The number of deaths so far is less than expected by my former colleagues working in the Pharmaceutical industry.

    I am uncomfortable that so many of the vaccines are associated with the greatest evil of our age, the murder of the innocents, those most marginalised and voiceless in our society.

    Thanks to the yearly cycle of scriptures in the TLM, and the emphasis on those teaching moments of Our Lord. I am painfully aware of the the various criticisms made by our Lord, towards those that followed the Law to the letter, but without thought, without charity and without love. Just because my archbishop says that it is o.k. to only fast two days of the year, is it o.k. that I only fast 2 days of the year while I read the prayers and sing the hymns of the Church (EF) that talk about the importance of a 40 day fast?
    Same with the vaccine, just because a one bishops says it is o.k., what am I going to say to HIM on the day of judgement when I am accused? Sounding like a Pharisee is not a good option.
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,767
    That Day is not going to be a comfortable one in any case. I would not care to have to answer for unknowingly infecting others, or taking a hospital bed that could have saved someone else.
    Thanked by 4CharlesW CHGiffen a_f_hawkins Schönbergian
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    So true! Who in their right mind would want to be sick and infect others?
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,371
    I am uncomfortable that ...
    Agreed, but as I understand it, these cell lines are used to test many things, for example many of the ingredients in processed foods. And even if you prepare all your food from raw ingredients, have you checked the pesticides and fertilizers, ...
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    I am uncomfortable that so many of the vaccines are associated with the greatest evil of our age, the murder of the innocents, those most marginalised and voiceless in our society.
    echo

    if you take the vaccine you are probably complicit with supporting the harvesting of fetal cells from abortion.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,157
    "Probably complicit with supporting" sounds like a rather vague accusation.
    Thanked by 1Elmar
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    As this virologist explains, it isn't just about (he doesn't even mention) whether or not the Church calls their reception "licit" (the idea of which I cannot agree).

    He believes he has a moral obligation to let people know that this mass vaccination campaign is wrong and could have devastating consequences on all of humanity.

    "These vaccines don’t prevent infection... It is detrimental both on a population level, as on an individual level. And I’m telling you why. I think the population level I explained to you, we are increasingly facing highly infectious strains that already right now, we cannot control because basically what we are doing is that we are turning — when we vaccinate somebody, we are turning this person in a potential asymptomatic carrier that is shedding the virus."


    Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche, says that by vaccinating everyone with a vaccine that doesn’t prevent transmission, we are destroying people’s immune systems, and setting the stage for a global health disaster./
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  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    (By the way, why do I have to search for this discussion in order to find it, rather than it showing up in the most-recent headings?)
  • Elmar
    Posts: 500
    (Have the same order-problem at present, threads are showing up chronologically by first instead of last post...)
    we are increasingly facing highly infectious strains [...] when we vaccinate somebody, we are turning this person in a potential asymptomatic carrier that is shedding the virus
    This nice (btw. evlution based) argument is hard to turn into moral advice: The more we save lives by medical means from being lost to infectious deseases, the more we (individually and collectively) become vulnerable for them.
    The fast part is evulution of the virusses that we are watching happening, the slow part is on the human immune system.
    Should we 'therefore' stop to protect each other? ...
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    Like I heard someone recently say, we don't have a "human right" to "not get sick."

    Should we be reckless and go around, willy nilly, when we are sick with infectious viruses like cold, flu, "covid," etc.? Of course not.

    Does that mean that we all have to get shots to make others feel better - even at the heightened risk to new infection and vaccine shedding? I don't think so.

    The chicken pox vaccine, for instance, has never made any sense.
    Flu vaccines make little to no sense to me, at all, and I don't take them.
    I won't take a vaccine for a random form of cold virus, either, nor will I give it to my children.
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