If the organ is not to be used, except to support the chant/singing/......
  • CharlesSA
    Posts: 163
    I'm not familiar with any rubric other than the 1962 missal one stating that if the Sanctus is chanted, it is to be sung in full before the elevation, but if it is polyphonic, the Sanctus and Benedictus is split. So I am not commenting based on any actual knowledge of the historical decrees/rubrics on the matter.

    However: I am by no means an antiquarian but I don't think it is antiquarian to look at what the rubrics would have been before the advent of polyphony. I could be dead wrong, but it seems very plausible that before polyphony, if the Sanctus-Benedictus was considered one chant as a whole, that it would have consistently all been sung before the elevation. If this is true, it makes perfect sense to conform our current practice to this when chanting. And to just modify it accordingly if a polyphonic Sanctus is used.

    Personally, I VERY much treasure the complete silence after the elevation, which is one of the reasons why I prefer the Sanctus especially to be chanted and not replaced with polyphony. Perhaps this isn't the best way of looking at this, but one of the very distinctive features (among many, of course) of the traditional liturgy compared to the new is precisely that the Canon is silent, and a polyphonic Sanctus-Benedictus takes that away, no matter how beautiful that polyphonic setting might be.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,467
    CGZ - Pope Pius XII set up the Commission formally as part of the SRC, but reporting directly to him through the Sostituto for General Affairs, Mgr. G B Montini later Pope Paul VI. Members included A. Bea who was the pope's confessor, and had direct access to him. The Secretary was A. Bugnini. Bugnini says on p.9 of his opus that they worked in absolute secrecy, and that the revision of the Triduum in March 1951 (Ordo Sabbati Sancti instaurandi) took the other officials of the Congregation of Rites completely by surprise.
  • Pope Pius XII chose Montini and Bugnini to plan liturgical reform?

    What was he thinking?

  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,979
    You know, that clears up a number of things.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,467
    What was he thinking?
    I hope that this question will soon be more fully explored, now the archives of Pius XII have been opened.
    Perhaps he shared the opinion of Fr Fortescue (privately expressed) that the SRC was “a crowd of dirty little monsignori at Rome in utter ignorance of the meaning or reason of anything”.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,979
    I can't view the silent canon as anything but an aberration condemned as far back as Justinian. It is clericalism of the worst sort and reinforces the Protestant view that the mass is all hocus-pocus and secret magical nonsense.

    However, that being said, Montini and Bugnini in charge of any liturgical reform is like letting the arsonist be in charge of putting out fires. I can't think of anyone worse that could have been put in that job.

    I wonder if the Vatican will beatify Bugnini next.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    I can't think of anyone worse that could have been put in that job.


    I can. How about Luther and Cranmer? After all, they were the models for Bugsy and Monty.
  • Dad,

    You make the late archbishop sound like a gangster. Mind you, you make the late Pope sound like a member of a comedy troupe......
  • francis
    Posts: 10,824
    O jeez... don't get me going about Cranmer...
  • ...and Cranmer....mobels for...
    I know well Cranmer's traitorous shortcomings. He was burned at the stake because of them. Yet, I am inclined to believe that his BCP, which is widely revered (even by Catholics) even to this day, goes quite a ways to earn him respect. He was gifted by God with a particular genius for crafting an hieratic English. Just how is he made a 'model' for the likes of 'Bugsy and Monty'? If these wolves in sheep's clothing had really followed in Cranmer's footsteps we would likely have an English missal that was beyond praise. Burning at the stake was, in Cranmer's day, perceived as a cleansing from sin and heresy. So Cranmer has paid his debt. Not so 'Bugsy and Monty', who ought to have been burned at the stake.
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  • madorganist
    Posts: 906
    Bugsy and Monty
    You people know one of these is a canonized saint, right?
  • .
  • Madorganist,

    The fact that St. Augustine is a Doctor of the Church must not mean that his carrying on with a woman before his conversion was somehow appropriate.

    One of these men is a canonized saint, but this doesn't require us to approve of his every action.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • madorganist
    Posts: 906
    And would you find it seemly and unobjectionable to quip that St. Augustine of Hippo ought to have been burnt at the stake? This a still a Catholic forum, is it not?
  • .
  • gsharpe34
    Posts: 47
    @a_f_hawkins -- interestingly the 1908 gradual omits the rubric, but the 1957 edition has it. As does the liber from 1954 and before - but I haven't researched the editions of the liber, which, as I understand it, simply collated material from official sources. If the liber says up to the Benedictus EXCLUSIVE, the editors got it from somewhere.....

    I doubt Solesmes wanted the chant sung together for any random reason - though I have no evidence for that suspicion.

  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,467
    carefree havoc
    I don't think so. Marini's narrative is called A Challenging Reform. Paul VI was deeply troubled by liturgical chaos in Germany and the Low Countries following VII. Many priests there took the prospect of a relaxation of the obdurate immobility of SRC to go off devising and using their own liturgies. I have read of more than two score unauthorised "Eucharistic Prayers" having been published and used, who can say how many other unpublished initiatives there may have been. Bugnini and Paul VI did succeed in patching together something that kept schism at bay.
    Our problem is that we then needed someone with the drive and organising ability of Bugnini to then be allowed to undertake a proper reform of the reform. Thanks to the quiet initiatives of Benedict XVI we now have two alternative uses/forms authorised.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • gsharpe34
    Posts: 47
    And @CharlesSA, Pius X says it is fitting to sing a motet to the blessed sacrament following the elevation, and the ceremonial of bishops says the organ should play sweetly and gravely during the elevation. Not to say that that's the only way to do it or only viable opinion, but it is interesting to see the Benedictus as a hymn to God in the Second Person of the Trinity ON THE ALTAR (because it is the words the Hebrew children sang to Our Lord when he came), most fitting after his presence has been made tangible (manner of speaking) on the altar - and contrast the Acclamation (or whatever it's called - I haven't been to a NOM since 1993) which says "Christ is risen...&c....Christ will COME AGAIN" (even though he's right in front of everyone). To me, the Benedictus after the elevation/consecration is an antidote for the implied heresy in that particular acclimation...and if it be admitted (it can be demonstrated, I think) that the Holy-Week reform was a dry run for the modernist changes to the liturgy in the 1970s, it becomes very clear why the Benedictus was removed from its previously typical place in the liturgy, post-elevation/consecration.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    the Acclamation [...] which says "Christ is risen...&c....Christ will COME AGAIN"

    You really haven't been to a celebration of Mass in English for years! That text, which didn't correspond to any of the acclamations in the 1970 Latin Missale Romanum, was deleted when the most recent edition of the Missale was translated to English in 2011.

    The memorial acclamations were added to the Canon in 1970 apparently to imitate a feature of certain Eastern liturgies. For example, the Maronite Qurbono has this prayer after the consecration:

    O Lord, we remember your death,
    we witness to your resurrection,
    we await your second coming,
    we implore your compassion,
    and we ask for the forgiveness of our sins.
    May your mercy come upon us all.


    Or this one:
    O God, we remember your death,
    we witness that you rose from among the dead,
    we await your return.


    Whether adding this to the Roman rite was a good idea or not, it seems reasonable to accept that such prayers, if they were of long standing in liturgies already approved by the Holy See, were at least not contradictory to the faith.
  • madorganist
    Posts: 906
    I'm pretty sure the Sanctus-Benedictus split has been discussed previously on this forum. I think the integrity of the musical composition has more to do with it that any liturgical reform motive. Already in 1912, Fortescue wrote as follows:
    The custom of waiting till after the Elevation and then adding the Benedictus, once common, is now abolished by the rubric ("De ritibus servandis in cantu missæ, VII) of the Vatican Gradual. It was a dramatic effect that never had any warrant. Sanctus and Benedictus are one text.
    That rubric pertains to Gregorian chant. As has already been noted, in polyphonic Masses, the Benedictus is sung after the Elevation. A motet is expressely allowed afterward in TLS but discouraged in DMS. It's unlikely that there would be time for a polyphonic Benedictus plus a motet in the few minutes from after the Elevation until the end of the Canon. It is unrubrical and incorrect to split the Gregorian Sanctus and Benedictus, regardless of which Missal one is using.
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  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,467
    madorganist - I agree with Fortescue. But the rubric was subsequently changed back to the rule in Pustet days. This illustrates Fortescue point about "... monsignori at Rome in utter ignorance of the meaning or reason of anything”. They were not interested in "why", just in maintaining the rule, even if it was clearly an abberation.
    That rigidity neccessitated the secrecy in which Bugnini was allowed to work, that rigidity caused the post VII explosion of our liturgy.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,467
    And this rigidity is still present in CDWDS. Pope Benedict XVI favoured moving the sign of peace to the beginning of the Liturgy of the Faithful. CDWDS said no. Pope Francis asked them to change the rubric on foot washing, after 18 months of inaction he instructed them to change it forthwith. Pope Francis changed the procedure for clearing translations, and changed Canon Law to reflect that. CDWDS issued a statement that nothing had changed, and had to be publicly rebuked and forced to issue a retraction.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Pope Benedict XVI favoured moving the sign of peace to the beginning of the Liturgy of the Faithful. CDWDS said no.

    It's not obvious that Pope Benedict had a strong opinion in favor of moving the Pax. In the main body of his 2007 exhortation Sacramentum caritatis, he wrote:
    during the Synod of Bishops there was discussion about the appropriateness of greater restraint in this gesture, which can be exaggerated and cause a certain distraction in the assembly just before the reception of Communion.

    But at the request of the synod fathers, he wrote in a footnote, he asked CDWDS to seek input from the bishops' conferences about the possibility of moving it.

    Here's the resulting CDWDS document, approved by Pope Francis:
    https://zenit.org/articles/text-of-vatican-document-on-sign-of-peace-at-mass/

    It doesn't sound like a convincing case was made to change the practice of the Roman rite -- hundreds of years old, at least -- on the basis of a proposition from one meeting of the Synod of Bishops.

    Even the synod didn't speak strongly for it:
    Forse sarebbe utile valutare se il segno di pace non vada collocato in un altro momento della celebrazione, anche tenendo conto di consuetudini antiche e venerabili.

    That is:
    Perhaps it would be useful to evaluate if the sign of peace should not be moved to another moment of the celebration, also taking account of ancient and venerable customs. [my translation]

    With this as background, it doesn't seem apt to treat this matter as evidence of some lack of reason or scholarship on the part of CDWDS, its members or its consultors.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    Bugnini and Paul VI did succeed in patching together something that kept schism at bay.


    Damning with very faint praise, and a rather tenuous non-schism, friend.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    Pius X says it is fitting to sing a motet to the blessed sacrament following the elevation


    In one job, the priest insisted on organ interlude after the Consecration (if there was no polyphonic Benedictus.) In the next one, the priest insisted that there be silence after the Consecration (the choir sang Chant only.) Not hard to conclude that priests know everything, but really know nothing.....
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  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    It's also possible that Fortescue had an axe to grind about CDWDS. Wouldn't be the first time that churchmen were at loggerheads about something (or nothing.)
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Fortescue also died in 1923, so applying his opinions about the SRC to the CDWDS of eighty years later is an anachronism.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW tomjaw
  • gsharpe34
    Posts: 47
    It's unlikely that there would be time for a polyphonic Benedictus plus a motet in the few minutes from after the Elevation until the end of the Canon.

    Which is why the previous rubric can only have referred, practically speaking, to a Gregorian Benedictus and a motet - and one need not be speaking of a polyphonic motet either. We routinely sing a small piece (chant or otherwise) after the elevation, and it works very well. Indeed it is quite moving to hear the traditional Ave Verum melody right after the Blessed Sacrament has been confected.

    As for the separate Benedictus, Jungmann has it as early as 1600 in the CE and apparent in Paris as early as 1512. The practice of the elevation as we know it doesn't go back more than two/two and a half centuries prior, according to canonist Charles Augustine. Wasn't that enough custom (400+ years) for the reformers to leave alone?

    As for Fortescue, his unsupported assertion (presumably from his Catholic Encyclopedia article) cites no authority and makes a presumption about a Graduale rubric that can be read one way (by itself) or another (in the context of SRC decrees). It is questionable whether the Graduale rubric (as long as it was in force - 1908 to 1921) actually nullified the CE or even intended to address the Benedictus, since there is no explicit mention there one way or the other.

    Finally, I don't understand the hostility to the SRC or the basis for Fortescue's purported wisecrack about the monsignori. They were acting on behalf of legitimate authority (which everyone seems to take a great interest in these days), and almost always cited precedent when responding to inquiries. If we are a church of tradition, traditional practice means something (also referred to as custom, a force stronger than law according to some authorities). Current and even less recent scholarship also suggests that the Sanctus-Benedictus separation goes back beyond the 1500s.
  • The pax was at the offertory in the Ordinariate Use which preceded Divine Worship. It was moved to conform to (current) Roman practice.

    As for the elevation: Elizabeth I was, as many will know, very 'high church', as was her Chapel Royal. She was known at the elevation insistently to say 'heave it higher, sir priest, heave it higher'.
  • madorganist
    Posts: 906
    As for the separate Benedictus, Jungmann has it as early as 1600 in the CE and apparent in Paris as early as 1512.... Current and even less recent scholarship also suggests that the Sanctus-Benedictus separation goes back beyond the 1500s.
    Fine and well, @gsharpe34, but none of that seems to take into account the chant itself. As @a_f_hawkins suggested, perhaps returning to the earlier arrangement of singing Sanctus and Benedictus together was envisioned by the Solesmes monks and/or the members of the commission that prepared the 1908 Gradual. Solesmes-style chant was not being sung at all in the 1500s or even most of the 1800s. The somewhat corrupted chant was sung slowly in that entire era, for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWlwr_GvBMw

    My point is that perhaps it was the change to the music itself, and not any ceremonial innovation, that necessitated the separation. Such conditions no longer exist with the restored chants, just as they didn't exist in the eleventh, eighth, or fourth century. Polyphony is another matter. Regardless, the 1958 instruction is unambiguous.
  • And, not only was it slow, very slow, the greater the feast the more slowly was it sung - so Andre Raison and others have attested.
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  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,467
    There is still a strong temptation that the grander the occasion the slower the song https://youtu.be/UFt1FRG4_VM?list=RDUFt1FRG4_VM
    Thanked by 1madorganist
  • gsharpe34
    Posts: 47
    @madorganist - I am waiting for access to Dom Combe's text on the preparation of the Vatican Ediiton, where there is some mention of what the monks wanted to do with the Sanctus/Benedictus, as well as at 1934 article from the Revue du chant gregorien.

    In the meanwhile, what I have found suggests that the Solesmes/Vatican commission indeed wanted to petition the SRC for authorization to separate the Sanctus and Benedictus, and the SRC said no (as close to the publication date of the new edition of the Gradual as 1909 - one/two years after the gradual rubrics hit the street, so to speak). Notwithstanding the distaste that some express for SRC decrees, the Commission obviously saw in them the expression of liturgical authority - and the bottom line (this is really my only point) is that they are consistent for the duration of the SRC's treatment of this question. The 1909 decree affirms that the provisions of the CE were to be followed, and at least one of the books of chant I have affixes that decree as a footnote to the gradual rubric which explains when the sanctus is to be sung.

    It would appear that Fr Fortescue was unaware of the 1909 ruling when he wrote in 1911/12 that the decision(s) placing the Benedictus after the consecration was overruled. Finally, the separated Sanctus/Benedictus would appear to be consistent with the mind of St Pius X - not only based on the text of his 1903 motu but also the 1893 votum on which it was modeled - both expressly pemit a motet in honor of the Blessed Sacrament to be sung after the Benedictus (and there would be no time to sing a motet before the consecration following a combined Sanctus/Benedictus).

    I acknowledge that this changed in 1958; the only point I was making as of the original mention of this was that it appears odd to make such a change when the contrary position was expressly and so consistently maintained for centuries, even in the face of repeated requests (which were consistently answered in the negative).
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,467
    It should be noted that the 1958 De musica sacra et sacra liturgia claims to set out the existing Papal teaching:
    it seems opportune that the principal sections on sacred liturgy and sacred music and their pastoral efficacy be taken from these aforementioned documents and set down concisely in one special Instruction, so that their content may be more easily and surely put into practice.
    Formally this could be justified as not a change by pointing out that the 1908 Gradual is an aithoritative Vatican publication, while the subsequent Solesmes editions are "private" publications, tolerated rather than authorised.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,092
    When Bishop Olgethorpe performed the elevation at her coronation Mass contrary to her specific forbidding of it, Queen Elizabeth I left the service.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,467
    Wikipedia
    The most controversial element of the ceremony was the Coronation Mass and Elizabeth's participation in it, since the three surviving eye-witness reports are either obscure or contradictory.
  • madorganist
    Posts: 906
    Elizabeth I was, as many will know, very 'high church', as was her Chapel Royal.
    Speaking of the Church of England, I recall that the 1662 BCP does not include the Benedictus in the Lord's Supper liturgy. I see that it was included in 1549 and removed in 1559. Does this reflect the Catholic practice of the time in any way?
  • GambaGamba
    Posts: 548
    Re removal of the Benedictus in the 1559 BCP, and subsequent official prayer books until the modern liturgical movement, see point 1 here. https://alivingtext.com/2010/10/18/omissions-from-the-book-of-common-prayer/

    Either it’s
    1) The Benedictus is not part of the song of the angels in Isaiah 6, so it’s not desirable to add it, or
    2) (the grumbling I always heard) “Blessed is he who comes....” suggests we are acclaiming someone who has come to us, or shortly will arrive. If the goal of the ‘59 BCP was to unequivocally express Reformed theology, it would be quite inconvenient to suggest to the people, just before the consecration, that God is about to become present in the Eucharist.
  • .
  • Accompaniment in Church documents doesn't necessarily mean what we musicians think of.


    True enough, but only during the rule of Pope Francis does "Accompaniment" appear to mean " confirm in the bad habits those who have them".
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