Reform of the Reform (Propers, Chant, etc.)
  • Charles wrote:
    Clericalism can involve huge egos, too.
    There is also a mindset that develops of letting father do everything and we just watch. Not good, since we all have a part to play. The mass is not all about father, although some priests seem to think it is.


    Charles, respectfully, I believe your relative good parish experience has allowed you to not see what is painfully common in most places: that clericalism is now excessively on the side of those “Presiders” who impose their personalities on the faithful by altering Mass text, telling jokes, being a personable wiseguy, using in-Mass announcements to constantly and painfully make us aware of their presence, etc... In the parish that I grew up in, a pastor change happened when I was a senior in high school. The new pastor insisted on telling jokes immediately after the post-communion prayer, even during the choral “high Mass” because he said he wanted everyone to “leave with a smile” on their face. He went on to tell a joke about Poles, blonds, etc... Meanwhile most parishioners would chuckle and laugh through the following “The Lord be with you” dialogue. A few parishioners left, saying they would be back as soon as Fr. stopped this practice. And who was labeled the curmudgeon? Those faithful people who desired a chance to pray.

    Clericalism? I was in a Novus ordo parish in eastern South Dakota not too long ago that had the presider’s chair elevated in the center of the sanctuary with six candles around it, with the tabernacle far away. And whatever you think of the Council of Trent and the practice of introducing the tabernacle into the center of the sanctuary, I will take re-introducing the divine Lord of all creation into the center of our minds and hearts any day, particularly in a culture that has lost a sense of Him. It is painful to continually read you dismiss the importance of this reality in such a faithless world. And when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on earth? -Luke18:8

    Someone sent me this video, and, starting at 2:19 is the sort of improvisatory creativity that just grates at me and many of those I know. If I had to go through stuff like this every weekend I probably couldn’t keep the faith. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=s4wh8Kb97N4
    FULL DISCLOSURE: I know that that not every parish is like this. I know many fine, fine ordinary form/NO priests, including an 89 year old priest who I have the joy of taking out to lunch and talking music with several times a year. Another FULL DISCLOSURE: I do not agree with all the side commentary this video makes.

    Lastly, I present to you in an article written by a great friend of Monsignor Schuler, Fr. John Buchanan for Musica Sacra back in the late 80’s. Father was one of the earliest liturgical reformers, moving his altar to face the people as early as the 1940s, removing Communion rails, etc... But a few decades later he found himself face to face with the very principles he at at one time had been advocating. His article is on page 5. https://media.musicasacra.com/publications/sacredmusic/pdf/sm114-4.pdf
    Thanked by 1Joseph Michael
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,597
    Jacob, I will watch the video later in the day after work. Yes, I still work at my age both in music and part time in the government agency I retired from.

    I would maintain that placing the tabernacle in the center of the sanctuary is not so significant when the majority of the people no longer believe Christ is actually there. Sad, but true.

    Some seem to get hung up on 2000 year old traditions that are anything but. Much of what the Trads gush about is post-Trent at the earliest. Some of those things were an actual departure from tradition.

    I agree I am blessed to be in a parish where, along with my fellow curmudgeons, we don't put up with liturgical nonsense. We had a pastor who put his chair in front of the altar for a few short weeks. Some of the older ladies who had known him since he was a child, told him to get his fat arse to the side where it belonged. He wisely went along.

    When you get right down to it, we really have little influence outside our own parishes. The craziness that exists in some place is beyond our control and we can't fix it. In my place, the chancery sends pastors whose conservatism puts them at odds with the more liberal parishes. That works to our advantage whether it was intended or not.
  • Francis,

    Murky implies dark and unclear. Absent the idea that His Holiness is intentionally doing what he is for the purpose of preparing to lance the boil, "unclear" is inadequate to describe the situation.
  • Charles wrote:
    I would maintain that placing the tabernacle in the center of the sanctuary is not so significant when the majority of the people no longer believe Christ is actually there. Sad, but true.


    Simple question: Will more people come to know Christ is sacramentally present in the Eucharist when the tabernacle is no longer visible? If things are bad now, how much more will they be when He is no where to be found, except in a broom closet that nobody visits?

    In a related but distinct point: How crazy is it when I'm speaking to God that a priest stares me in the face? If I was speaking looking straight at you and Michael is a football field-length away, how odd would it be for you to realize that I was speaking to Michael? Yet this happens All The Time. Now wonder people are confused...
    Thanked by 1irishtenor
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,597
    No broom closets. Sacrament houses and chapels devoted to Christ's real presence. The tabernacle over the altar is a post-Trent innovation that even the Vatican opposed for some time before giving approval. I don't see it as anything essential to faith. However, it is not a secret I am an easterner and can find Latin practices a bit odd, at times.

    Thanked by 1a_f_hawkins
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 2,093
    GIRM#314. In accordance with the structure of each church and legitimate local customs, the Most Blessed Sacrament should be reserved in a tabernacle in a part of the church that is truly noble, prominent, conspicuous, worthily decorated, and suitable for prayer. ...
    In any church large enough for distinct chapels, that means a Blessed Sacrament Chapel devoted to reservation, not a box stuck at the back of the sanctuary behind all the furniture needed for Mass.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW CHGiffen
  • Oddly enough it was a 'positive' 'reform of the reform' experience that killed my appreciation for the idea. I belonged to a lay association led by a priest who celebrated with lovely reverence, with great respect for tradition, and with good choices of music, including some chant. Once a week I had access to the TLM, once a week to the lay association RotR, and the rest of the days there was the random-coin-toss-Mass at the closest parish, where each of the five priests celebrated according to his mood and preferences, and they were on a random schedule, so one could never hope for any consistency. One liked to do very emotive rituals, such as suddenly singing part of the liturgy in an unknown language (Greek? Aramaic?), processing in with the Extraordinary Ministers carrying thuribles and a stereo system blasting Mozart, playing meditation tunes on his iphone during Communion, while the Ministers distributed... Another was a ferocious young priest expert in marital law, who preached fire and brimstone and was always available when it was his turn to man the confessional, and celebrated humorlessly, prayerfully and with no ornament whatsoever. Another was a jolly fellow who loved to chuck me under the chin or pat me on the cheek after I received Communion. He sometimes burst into song - he sang quite well! - but it was random. Sometimes a fragment of an Introit in Latin, sometimes an Offertory hymn, sometimes a Marian hymn after Mass. He once burst out "SILENCE!!!" mid-prayer when some people were chattering loudly near the entrance. Another was always late and always looked as if someone had had to go wake him up and drag him downstairs: unshaven, rumpled clothes, sneakers showing under the vestments, hair askew. He prayed his Masses rapidly and rotely, with no innovations.

    I reiterate: this is at ONE church. The other eight churches within easy reach of my house offer the same grand diversity of liturgical practices. Even the most conservative church I can go to (I assisted there for a year before discovering the TLM) is a weird mish-mash of creativity and reverence. The liturgies are done in whatever way fits with the preferences of the priest and choir. It makes for a facade of reverent ritual while actually skipping this and that to save time, including/excluding things to pander to VIPS in the congregation, and so on.

    All this merely to say that when, then, Father RotR made his grand effort at reverence and beauty, it was starkly apparent that it was simply yet another choice, a matter of taste, or even a kind of affectation. There is/was simply no fixed or 'correct' manner of celebrating, but only a general range of options, some of which are actually not permitted in practice (if they are too reformy!).

    So anyway, after years of valiant effort, I've just given up. Given that the very source of all the confusion is disobedience in ten directions, in what possible manner are we going to obligate everyone to celebrate the same way? Or even in a vaguely similar way? No one is going to give an inch on their now-politicized practices. What never happens is a deference to and service to the liturgy as it is, as it "must be", so that we participate in it as it is, rather than making it be as we wish. THAT feature of the older rite seems to me the most profound. If I - in some alternative universe - were to 'redo' the reform, that would be one of the most important parts: here is our liturgy. These are our prayers. These are our gestures.

    The seminarians I know now (in the diocesan seminary) have no formation in liturgy. They are expected to learn on the job, in the parishes, and do it however they like. I find this mystifying. As I have long said in other contexts: I don't need anyone to make stuff up for me. I'm quite intelligent and creative, and I can make my own stuff up. I can't recall any instance in which God said "Oh, do whatever, I don't care." He normally seems to care very, very much what we do, and wants our full, heart-felt engagement in HIS will, not for us to doodle around doing whatever we wish.

    Anyway, I've been much distraught by the pagan goings-on at the recent synod (being a former pagan myself), and that has left me both much more engaged in prayer, and much more committed to living the fullness of my faith in every moment, no matter how crazy everyone else gets. It's an honor and a trial to be alive at such a strange time.

    Sorry to rant.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,597
    It's an honor and a trial to be alive at such a strange time.


    Yes, it truly is. While there are few dull moments, the chaos eventually gets a bit tiring.
    No solutions offered, since I can't enforce them anyway. I think I am very fortunate to be in the parish where I am.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,933
    @CatherineS

    Thank you, thank you for ranting so eloquently.

    blasting Mozart...
    I’m always doing that... along with the RotR... it’s a silly excuse to avoid the real thing, just as you expressed so well, adding or subtracting whatever WE LIKE... either GC or Clowns... take your pick. (and as long as the NO remains, that is exactly how it will continue to be.)

    And, your efforts as a DoM, will never be stable. That is anti to the theology of the NO. All hail the VO.
    Thanked by 1JacobFlaherty
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 2,093
    Yet again this is to be traced back to dereliction of duty by bishops.
    Sacrosanctum Concilium - II. The Promotion of Liturgical Instruction and Active Participation
    14. Mother Church earnestly desires that all the faithful should be led to that fully conscious, and active participation in liturgical celebrations which is demanded by the very nature of the liturgy. … Yet it would be futile to entertain any hopes of realizing this unless the pastors themselves, in the first place, become thoroughly imbued with the spirit and power of the liturgy, and undertake to give instruction about it. A prime need, therefore, is that attention be directed, first of all, to the liturgical instruction of the clergy. Wherefore the sacred Council has decided to enact as follows:
    15. Professors who are appointed to teach liturgy in seminaries, religious houses of study, and theological faculties must be properly trained for their work in institutes which specialize in this subject.
    16. The study of sacred liturgy is to be ranked among the compulsory and major courses in seminaries and religious houses of studies; in theological faculties it is to rank among the principal courses. It is to be taught under its theological, historical, spiritual, pastoral, and juridical aspects. Moreover, ...
    17. In seminaries and houses of religious, clerics shall be given a liturgical formation in their spiritual life. ...
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 2,093
    Can. 246 §1. The eucharistic celebration is to be the center of the entire life of a seminary in such a way that, sharing in the very love of Christ, the students daily draw strength of spirit for apostolic work and for their spiritual life especially from this richest of sources.
    Can. 252 §3. There are to be classes in dogmatic theology, always grounded in the written word of God together with sacred tradition; through these, students are to learn to penetrate more intimately the mysteries of salvation, especially with St. Thomas as a teacher. There are also to be classes in moral and pastoral theology, canon law, liturgy, ecclesiastical history, and other auxiliary and special disciplines, according to the norm of the prescripts of the program of priestly formation.
    INSTRUCTION ON LITURGICAL FORMATION IN SEMINARIES
    Sacred Congregation for Catholic Education
    Part Two
    THE TEACHING OF THE SACRED LITURGY IN SEMINARIES
    a) General Principle
    43. Besides the first and elementary introduction to the liturgy which is to be imparted, when necessary, when the students first enter the seminary, as mentioned in no. 8 above, the Bishops' Conferences are to arrange that in their national Ratio institutionis the teaching of the liturgy is given that place in the four-year theology course which satisfies the prescription of the Constitution Sacrosanctum concilium no. 16: "The study of the sacred liturgy is to be ranked among the compulsory and major courses in seminaries and religious houses of study; in theological faculties it is to rank among principal subjects. It is to be taught under its theological, historical, spiritual, pastoral, and juridical aspects." This prescription, which is summed up in no. 79 of the Ratio fundamentalis, must be understood in its genuine sense and put into effect, as the following paragraphs indicate.
  • a_f_hawkins wrote:
    Yet again this is to be traced back to dereliction of duty by bishops.


    Agreed, to a point. But it also has to be stated that if you read the documents of VII and the instructions leading up to the Missal of Paul VI with any objectivity, you'll find allowances and variables big enough to drive a truck through. Wasn't the point of some of this so that clergy/people could make whatever assertions they deemed best and still be "right"? Sounds like the "mess" our current Pope speaks of...
    Thanked by 2stulte francis
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 2,093
    There is certainly a great deal of flexibility in some parts of the Mass, mostly in the way the celebrant can structure things and in the way he can comment and instruct. ("In these or similar words"). But if you are giving a single set of rules which covers every eventuality from the bishop celebrating pontifically to one priest in a scout camp, that is inevitable. And apart from certain specified flexibilities, there is a very clear rule that NO words are to be used that have not been authorised. Even alius cantus aptus was qualified by the text of which has been approved by ... .
    But in any case my extracts from the laws are in response to the observation
    The seminarians I know now (in the diocesan seminary) have no formation in liturgy.
    Which I imagine comments on Brasil, but which also to my knowledge was true of at least one seminary in England at the turn of the millenium. To be fair I should say that the actual celebrations in which the seminarians participated were exemplary.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,350
    The seminarians I know now (in the diocesan seminary) have no formation in liturgy.

    Conditions vary from place to place. Here there are two seminaries, one for older students and one for students in the typical age range. Both have music instructors who set good example and support authentic sacred music.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 876
    @CharlesW

    We are either your cup of tea, or not. If not, we encourage you to go elsewhere


    Apparently, such talk makes TLM-goers "elistist" and "unwelcoming."
    I don't know if you heard about the homily [loudly] given by Father when the Holy Ghost schola joined ours in Sept., but evidently someone is playing a game of complaints against TLM-communities in our diocese, and it is causing trouble.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,933
    @a_f_hawkins

    If you call out the present bishops as the reason for the mess, that is also an excuse to go local on the authority of the Church, including her HISTORICAL and TRADITIONAL liturgy, practices, morals and dogma. This is downright relativism, modernism, syncretism all wrapped up and delivered to us in the name of culturalism (for lastest episode of culturalism in the highest ranks of the Church, see pachamama... no, second thought, don't go to see her... see the BVM instead...).

    People create their own 'cup of tea' in every church around the globe (as @CharlesW will atest), all backed up by the wishy washy docs of VII including SC. From it we can not only drive a truck through it (thank you @JacobFlaherty), but we can drive it right into hell and not realize we are doing so until the tires melt from the licks of fire.

    If you are only 'going back' as far as SC, you have completely ignored the patrimony of the Church, her liturgy and prescriptions for following the magisterium.

    More later...

  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,597
    Apparently, such talk makes TLM-goers "elistist" and "unwelcoming."
    I don't know if you heard about the homily [loudly] given by Father when the Holy Ghost schola joined ours in Sept., but evidently someone is playing a game of complaints against TLM-communities in our diocese, and it is causing trouble.


    CCooze, That schola is not the Holy Ghost choir but a private group that sings with and for us every two weeks, that is, if you are referring to the Pope Benedict XVI Schola. Their help and assistance is greatly appreciated. I heard nothing about the homily, so fill me in on that, by private message if necessary.

    Complaints against TLM communities? I haven't heard complaints about TLM communities but about some of the really obnoxious people who have attached themselves to them. Approbations are deserved and some of those folks do the TLM communities great harm and are not an asset.

    We have one TLM mass per week, that particular schola never sings with them since they have their own choir, and the parish is majority NO English. That being said, the parish is far more conservative and traditional than your average NO parish. I see to that where music is concerned.
  • What never happens is a deference to and service to the liturgy as it is, as it "must be", so that we participate in it as it is, rather than making it be as we wish. THAT feature of the older rite seems to me the most profound. If I - in some alternative universe - were to 'redo' the reform, that would be one of the most important parts: here is our liturgy. These are our prayers. These are our gestures.


    Amen. The biggest problem with the OF is the ocean of optionality. Yes there is wonderful diversity in the different "rites" of the Catholic Church. But in the OF latin rite, its as if there a literally dozens if not more "sub-rites" from all the combinations and preferences. I am lucky to attend a parish like CharlesW but, in the nature of the case, that can't be a systematic solution to the issues with the OF. I think the EF needed some relatively minor reform (some calendar tweaks for saints, encourage the laity joining the chanting of the ordinary, maybe add the first reading but keep the one year cycle) and if they then had produced "one mass" with any options in one or two appropriate aspects (prefaces for example), that would have been great.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    /\ that.
  • I take it that the rotr is pretty much dead inasmuch as forum denizens have to move on to ancillary topics to keep this thread alive.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen tomjaw
  • stulte
    Posts: 262
    I take it that the rotr is pretty much dead

    Something that was never alive can't die. At best, the whole concept was good for making the most of a difficult situation. Case in point: where is the growth of Latin Novus Ordo Masses offered ad orientem with Gregorian Chant and sacred polyphony, only men and boys in the sanctuary, and Holy Communion distributed only on the tongue while kneeling versus the TLM? With the (relative) freedom now for priests to offer the TLM, why would anyone bother with the N.O. offered according to traditional praxis unless they had to?
    Thanked by 2tomjaw dad29
  • Funny you should ask...

    Next Sunday, November 24, pontifical Mass OF ad orientem (at the high altar, no less) by the local Ordinary and several priests. The Mass will be in English, but will have Mass VIII and Credo III, the Mozart Ave Verum, Palestrina Iesu Rex, and Lambilotte Panis Angelicus. Communion will be distributed at the Communion Rail which is being installed this weekend.

    The Mass is in conjunction a ceremony consecrating the diocese to Christ as King. The enthronement / consecration takes place at the end of Mass, and included Benediction with O Salutaris, Tantum Ergo, etc., ending with Christus Vincit Acclamations as we conclude.

    I can't speak to ROTR... but I can say that it is hard to imagine this happening even 10 years ago. There still are plenty of people (even commenters in this forum) who are antithetically opposed to anything that isn't the standard OF, but I think we are seeing more and more of this - at least in the U.S. - from what I've been able to see happening regarding conferences and various events.
  • stulte
    Posts: 262
    Funny you should ask...

    I'm glad that Mass is happening, but at the same time, it's a transition (a good one, but still). At the end of the day, there are so many options in the N.O. that improvements to the situation can only be transitory. I'm directing the music for an N.O. wedding Mass on the 30th with the Latin chant Propers, a polyphonic Ordinary, motets and mostly offered ad orientem. Hopefully, it bears good fruit both for the couple and for that parish, but I don't see it as a permanent situation. At best, it will spark interest in the TLM.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • I don't think ROTR is utterly "dead" but it is no longer a movement activated by Church leadership - the turning point being when Cardinal Sarah called for Ad Orientem and was shut down by Pope Francis. My parish is at least partially the fruit of the ROTR winds from 1998-2013 ish.

    So here are 4 experiences in NYC:

    Temporary parish when I first moved here:
    Largely, sung liturgy by priest and choir (best non-professional Catholic choir in NYC) and congregation in relatively small space- so fabulous. Mix of Latin and English (including the rare chanted Verbum Domini and Deo Gratias/ Laus Tibi Christe after the readings - odd it's rare since these are simple and easy). Gospel usually chanted in English. Lord's Prayer used the chant by Snow. No "contemporary" hymns very often . Cantor generally was choir member and did not use amplification. Psalm verses were sung antiphonally by Cantor and Choir if I recall and congregation sang response. Incense. Don't recall the Eucharistic Prayer choices.

    2nd Parish from 2011-2014 - Fair amount of Sung Liturgy. All Ordinaries chanted in Latin using Jubilate Deo compilation in Worship (Cantus Missae). Lord's Prayer used the chant by Snow. Cantor in choir loft not in front. 90% Traditional Hymns. Vaguely recall slowly increasing use of E1 and E3 rather than E2 on highest Sunday mass. 2015 came the merger with another Parish and the Latin was out and Cantor moved upfront and instructed to raise his arm (Ugh!). As usual in NYC, beautiful old school Church space and architecture.

    Current Parish - Same priest from temporary parish but tiny choir (its a rebuild situation). Substantially Sung Liturgy at the choral mass I attend. Only real hymn is opening - always a traditional hymn. Followed by Introit with Cantor and Congregation. Gospel and Creed chanted. Kyrie is a very simple kyrie (option 3 is used). Gloria by Andrews or Roman Missal Chant. Priest faces the Lord with the People for the Intercessory Prayers. Sanctus is either Proulx or his arrangement of Schubert. Lord's Prayer is Snow. Agnus Dei is in Latin using XVIII. Eastern Catholic Hymn-chant begins communion (Receive the Body of Christ). Psalm sung by choir during communion. After mass ends, Salve Regina in the simple Latin Chant - everyone sings reasonably well. Final Hymn - another Eastern Hymn - Priest faces altar and "God Grant us Many Years". No contemporary hymns. Lots of incense. Priest urges all to receive on the tongue after bowing. Short but inspiring and orthodox homilies. Wonderful baptism's with litany of Saints on the way to the font and sung baptismal liturgy by priest. E2 used more often than I would prefer on Sundays but so be it. Very beautiful church.

    Occasionally, I attend a Dominican Parish with a professional choir for their choral mass. Entire Congregation does sing Ordinary in English using Roman Missal chants, including Creed. I think Lord's Prayer is actually Snow rather than missal. Choir sings propers in Latin and also Latin motets. Lots of Incense. Another very beautiful Church building. Again, why E2 is fairly frequent at their highest mass is a bit of a puzzle. I pleasantly note today it was E1. Generally Priest(s) face the people. Reverent mass in general. Very well attended.
    Thanked by 1chonak
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,350
    The US Roman Missal has Snow's melody for the Our Father (p. 663) instead of the ICEL melody.
    Thanked by 1toddevoss
  • dad29
    Posts: 1,912
    ...but by 1900 there was little or no engagement by the congregation with the liturgy, it was 'just' an opportunity for private devotion. 60 years of papal exhortation had led to some improvement, but it was still short of Trent's vision.


    "Some improvement"? Umnnhh....yes, indeed!! All the chilluns in my grade school were equipped with hand-missals, as were many of their parents, in the 1950's/'60's. We were certainly not alone in that regard.

    And what, exactly, was "Trent's vision"?

    Further, if "Trent's vision" were all that clear and good, how could the monkey-wrenchers at the Liturgy Office in Rome rip out the 'most perfect prayer' (the Canon of Trent)? For that matter, was the Offertory of the EF so horrific that it, too, had to be dumped?
  • dad29
    Posts: 1,912
    It had become an exercise in clericalism. It was theater with onlookers, not participants.


    Or so you were told, Charles.

    Now we're told that we can dare to hope that ALL will be saved. So that must be the real, actual, scientific case, eh?
  • dad29
    Posts: 1,912
    When some of the eastern liturgies are more like 1500-1600 years old


    Indeed! And Rome's liturgy-gang totally ignored the Easterns while "improving" the Mass, as Mosebach notes in his introduction to his bio of B-16. In fact, the Easterns' traditions, largely untouched as you note, have not produced pumpkin-PIP's who only rattle beads and cannot/will not understand the Sacred Liturgy, have they?

    Or are you telling us that the Easterns, stuck in their 1500 year-old traditions, are not going to be saved because Koine?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,597
    Dad29 I think age is finally getting to you. I remember mass before Vatican II and it was what I noted. Even the church in an official council called for liturgical reform. Unfortunately, some of the restored TLM masses have recreated all the problems that caused that liturgy to be revised in the first place.

    I will stay with my 1500-year-old traditions. At least, some know-it-all wont be tampering with it. Also, the hippies hated us so they left us alone, too.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,350
    Hated you? Charles, I get the impression that hippies were especially attracted to the Eastern churches.

    That is, I'm thinking of the Jesus Movement denomination that found the Christian East so attractive that they gave up doing swimming-pool baptisms and reinvented themselves as an Orthodox body. After trying to function on their own for some years, most of them eventually joined the Antiochians.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 2,093
    dad29 - I agree that great improvements had been made, in some places including the Benedictine parish where I lived, during the 60 years up to 1963. But that was when the assembled bishops called for further changes.
    You ask me
    And what, exactly, was "Trent's vision"?
    See for yourself in either of these translations https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Canons_and_Decrees_of_the_Council_of_Trent/Session_XXII/Sacrifice_of_the_Mass or for a different translation http://www.thecounciloftrent.com/ch22.htm I don't know that anyone can see "exactly" what they wanted, but it included "the mysteries of the Mass to be explained to the people" frequently during the celebration of the Mass and the wish that "at each mass, the faithful who are present should communicate".
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,597
    Chonak, I heard about them. The main thing with my group is the hippies didn't bring their guitars and start wailing elevator music at us.

    It could have been babushkas with canes that scared the hippies off. Babushkas are armed and dangerous.
  • dad29
    Posts: 1,912
    a_f, my friend, "Communicate" in Trent-ese means "receive Communion." It does not mean "run one's mouth."

    As to 'frequent explanations,' that actually was a thing in the early '70's, IIRC. Didn't come off very well and died a quiet death, un-lamented. Since hand-missals and the near-universal ability to read, "commentators" were just redundant.

    Charles, apparently you were in a far different liturgical milieu than I was as a member of the congregation AND as an altar server in the mid-to-late '50's through early '60's. My sympathy.

    By the way, since the Orthodox still use Greek, are they incapable of "understanding" the Holy Liturgy?
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 2,093
    dad29 - I am fully aware of the meaning of communicate. I have unfortunately often encountered people who maintain that communion (apart from the celebrant's) was "never part of the Mass".
    I am not at all sure of the intention of "frequently during the celebration of the Mass", I would prefer to believe that it means "There should often be a homily", and not that there should be frequent ad lib comments during the liturgy. That obscurity/complexity is why I said we cannot be sure "exactly" what they wanted. However, by the end of the 19th century both requests were generally ignored.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,597
    By the way, since the Orthodox still use Greek, are they incapable of "understanding" the Holy Liturgy?


    Only the Greeks use Greek.

    Charles, apparently you were in a far different liturgical milieu than I was as a member of the congregation AND as an altar server in the mid-to-late '50's through early '60's. My sympathy.


    Apparently your little cult operated differently. Must be a blue state.
  • dad29
    Posts: 1,912
    Nah. My little cult was actually Roman Catholic. Whatever you were in........oh, well.