Looking for a Kyrie Trope
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    I am looking for the trope (preferably with notation) of the Kyrie "O Pater Excelse", found in the Kyriale Romanum among the 'ad libitum' chants. Does anyone have a copy of this? (Searches on Google don't seem to give much, at least on my end.)
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,175
    There's a version in Anton Stingl's book "Tropen zum Kyrie im Graduale Romanum" (EOS, 2011). I have it here somewhere.
  • Many thanks, Chonak and Catherine -
    I have ordered a copy.
    This will be a valuable reference, one which I have needed for quite some time.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,724
    @MJO Here are the Sarum tropes, and the rest of the Kyriale, https://macsphere.mcmaster.ca/bitstream/11375/16331/6/SM-kyriale.pdf

  • Many thanks, tomjaw.
    It would appear that the Gregorian Institute of Canada and the Gregorian Institute of America are horses of quite different colours and, ironically, have nothing in common - what a sad pity.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • The same author has others: tropes of the Sanctus, Agnus Dei etc. I find them really lovely for meditation, even if most aren't liturgically useful. I imagine you can sing the troped Kyrie's though? There are lots of vernacular versions that already include extra text.
  • your couldn't use them liturgically, as part of the ordinary, but you could sing them as 'anthems' at the offertory or communion on Sundays or seasons in which their texts would be appropriate.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw CatherineS
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    Many thanks to Richard C. I bought the book the other day, and look forward to its arrival. Even if not used liturgically, these are wonderful pieces for ad libitum use (Fons bonitatis, and maybe another, appear in the Cantus Selecti) during the Mass.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,724
    This should have all the texts, including Tropes of the other parts of the Ordinary,
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,774
    couldn't use them liturgically

    There's a little discussion at PrayTell on that subject. In the OF there are forms A (Confiteor & 6-fold Kyrie), B & C for the opening Penitential Act (you can read them at this object lesson in kerning). The 9 options given there for the troped form are called samples, which I suppose to mean "in these or similar words". It seems that responsive reading is envisioned, but it's not very clear that only the priest may say the invocations. Lutheran hymnals in fact include the Kyrie Fons bonitatis which pairs wonderfully with Bach's C-U iii fugettas.
  • In Brazil, OF, it's quite common (in my experience in Rio and São Paulo and surrounding areas) to have the Kyrie said or sung with words like this:

    Lord, you who came to pardon not to condemn, have mercy on us.
    Christ, who are overjoyed at a repentant sinner, have mercy on us.
    Lord, who forgive much he who loves much, have mercy on us.

    And many variations thereof. I've rarely heard the Kyrie said or sung without those 'tropes'. I don't know if these are fixed texts or made up ad libitum. I assumed they were inspired, in some way, by the troped Kyries.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,175
    The ad libitum invocations CatherineS describes are often casually termed "tropes", but I think it's a misnomer.

    Whatever they are, they are expressly permitted by the rubrics in the Roman Missal (pp. 518-519). They may be invented, but the Missal gives some examples in an Appendix as models. The examples share this characteristic: they are about Christ, not us; so they are all addressed to Him, they focus on His actions and attributes, and they hardly mention us at all.
  • ...Fons bonitatis, and maybe another...
    Kyrie fons bonitatis was the most common ordinary sung in the Germanies in the late mediaeval era and it continued to influence Lutheran liturgy and chorales. A vernacular version of the kyrie with its tropes appeared as a chorale (whose tune is a metrical version of the chant) and remains in use today in Lutheran churches. The chorale is Kyrie Gott Vater in Ewigkeit. It has three sections (the other two being Christe, aller velt Trost, and Kyrie Gott Schopfer Heiliger Geist) and is the chorale referenced in Bach's mighty setting of this chorale in the ClavierUbung, pt. III. The chorale is quite solemn and would make a grand anthem on some Sunday or other. It can be found in English translation in most any Lutheran hymnal. Though it would be appropriate for any number of Sundays, it would be, I think, particularly apt for Trinity Sunday (as would Bach's great organ 'tryptich').
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen tomjaw
  • If I remember, though, the relative clause in the Latin is rendered as a comma splice in English.

    Domine, qui ...
    is almost invariably rendered
    Lord, you.....
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,397
    Trope may be a misuse of the term, but it is used by IGMR#52.
    singulis acclamationibus « tropus » præponitur
    Very few of the medieval tropes fit the new pattern, however Deus genitor alme does. The RM for England&Wales is explicit "Invocations naming the gracious works of the Lord may be made", alas there is still a tendency for older priests to make up something like O Lord, for the times when we have offended against you; Lord have mercy
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    This is where (hold onto your hats!) I think that the rejected 1998 Sacramentary kinda got it right, calling the "troped Kyrie" the Litany of Praise, for indeed, that's what it is:
    You were sent to heal the contrite of heart: Lord, have mercy.
    You came to call sinners: Christ, have mercy.
    You are seated at the right hand of the Father to intercede for us: Lord, have mercy.

    is a lot closer to this (from the Gloria):
    You take away the sins of the world, have mercy on us.
    You take away the sins of the world, receive our prayer.
    You are seated at the right hand of the Father, have mercy on us

    than to this (Penitential Act B):
    Have mercy on us, O Lord.
    For we have sinned against you.
    Show us, O Lord, your mercy.
    And grant us your salvation.

    let alone this:
    I confess to almighty God...that I have sinned...through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault...

    I have never understood how Penitential Act, form C, could even be called such since it isn't an act of penitence, as forms A and B are. Since form C doesn't even mention that (i) we have sinned or that (ii) we are sorry for them, and, (iii) according to the rubrics shouldn't(!), I just don't see how it's possible that it could even be called a "Penitential Act", except from the legalistic standpoint that "The Missal calls it such, and so it must be".

    Sorry, I'm rambling and ranting.

    (Incidentally, the other thing I think that might have been a nice addition to a new Latin typical edition that the rejected 1998 Sacramentary had were proper versions of the proper (for lack of a better term) "Hanc igitur" and "Communicantes" for Eucharistic Prayers II, III, and IV for those days that have proper Hanc igitur and Communicantes prayers in the Roman Canon.)
    Thanked by 1a_f_hawkins
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,397
    If form C is not used the absolution precedes the Kyrie, which is then not part of the Penitential Act! The implication in form C that Kyrie eleison is inherently penitential is one of the infelicities of OF.
    I think the Church has been right over all the centuries in not attempting a translation of ἐλέησον, but leaving Kyrie eleison in Greek. The concept of ἔλεος, used to express God's attitude of lovingkindness, (used to translate Hebrew: חֶסֶד, ḥesed/chesed) is very rich and complex. Translating the imperative pithily is a big ask.