Would a responsorial sequence be allowed in EF?
  • raph
    Posts: 9
    So, the Corpus Christi sequence is very beautiful, but equally difficult and long. I found that version: https://youtu.be/uapkuUhMGjA
    It's lovely and maybe easier, but it has a responsorial nature.
    It is true that "Tra le sollecitudini" says that ". The liturgical text must be sung as it is in the books, without alteration or inversion of the words, without undue repetition, without breaking syllables, and always in a manner intelligible to the faithful who listen."
    But I'm not sure if it forbids the repetition of the text or by themselves or its trying to prevent distortions in the text that make the text confusing, like in this Credo: https://youtu.be/8cNibz1BpYA
    So, would singing this version of the sequence, albeit with more verses between the chorus, be permitted in the EF?
    Thanked by 2Salieri CHGiffen
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,704
    I would think no... but you could ask the priest, if he is French he may love the idea.
    If it is too long for you, why not psalm tone every other pair of stanzas? Or psalm tone the middle?
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    That setting of the Lauda Sion is from the plainchant of the DIocese of Amiens, and is given in the "Paroissien Note en Plain-chant a l'usage du Clerge et des Fideles du Diocese d'Amiens..." (How's that for a title!) on pg. 353 with the other music for the procession and stations for Corpus Christi (this includes a number of antiphons, the Pange Lingua, Sacris Solemniis, Adoro te, etc.).

    At the Mass for Corpus Christi, the "Paroissien" gives the standard mode 7 sequence, on pg. 361.

    So, that Lauda Sion, lovely as it is, was never intended to be sung before the Gospel at Mass, even in the Use of Amiens.

    [You can find the "Paroissien note..." in Google Books (look up: "Paroissine note Amiens"), you can also buy a reprint on Amazon.]
    Thanked by 3jchthys CHGiffen tomjaw
  • raph
    Posts: 9
    tomjaw
    Because psalm tones are a good idea only if you have an extremely unexperienced choir that can't sing an average gradual or if you're dealing with those crazy huge tracts from 1st Sunday of lent and Psalm Sunday. The problem is that that sequence has a pretty large note range, and and adding the length of the music, it gets really tiring for the choir.

    Salieri
    Yes, I'm aware of that. I'm looking for an alternative melody so it becomes easier to sing, but if I took a melody of some hymnal - and there are plenty to choose - the repetition would become too monotonous. I could also repeat the melody of the Amiens procession version with different verses, but it would be pretty nonsense. I guess I could compose a second my own...

    _________
    I think it's a bit frustrating how the EF is in a void, like it's being preserved in formaline, and some of the rubrics are pretty vague and clarification is needed...
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    Have you considered singing the sequence alternatim; having one 'side' of the choir sing the odd verses, the other 'side' the even, answering each other? That means that each side only has to learn half the music, and each side can take a breather while the other side continues. (The 'sides' can be decani/cantoris, men/women, cantors/schola, etc.)
  • jchthys
    Posts: 23
    I think a psalm tone is inappropriate, as the text is metrical and strophic (not a psalm!). The melody doesn't repeat throughout, either.

    Does your EF choir sing the propers with any regularity? Surely sequences are by no means the most difficult thing that you have had to sing. It may help avoid strain on the singers because of the length (as well as add interest) to could sing it antiphonally: the two halves of the choir, or a cantor and the choir, would sing alternate verses, which have the same melody. Or the verses could be divided by range if that is really an issue. Organ accompaniment is also a possibility.

    As for whether the congregation "wants" to listen to the whole sequence: let them; it's only once a year, and they attend an EF mass for a reason! I surely would want to. It's such a beautiful meditation in mode VII.

    Corpus Christi sequence - antiphonal, with organ
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,704
    The Lauda Sion is a metrical sequence of the type AA BB CC DE DE FF etc. The largest collection of them is found by Adam of St. Victor. St Thomas Aquinas used the melody for the Laudes Crucis to form the Lauda Sion, minus one pair of stanzas. Several other Sequences use the same melodies but they are of different lengths (fewer stanzas). Other melodies will also work... this book in French has a section on the music used for these type of Sequences, https://archive.org/details/lesprosesdadamd00aubrgoog/page/n5

    You could use the above to find a different melody...

    Anyway we always sing this in full but am tempted to produce a version with the original music that has a few extra notes!

    Some choirs are asked to psalm tone due to time constraints... Also I think it is better to psalm tone the Propers well than sing the Gregorian melodies badly, I am fortunate to have some very good singers so we only need to psalm tone (1% of the time) i.e. when key singers are away.
  • Tomjaw,

    What kind of time constraints?
    Oh, and thank you for the information about the connection between the tune and the text.

    Raph,

    A Responsorial psalm approach would run the risk of truncating the theological import of the text. It's also wholly inappropriate to insert a responsory where there isn't one. On the other hand, I wonder if it would be permitted to sing several polyphonic settings, covering the whole of the text.

    I think Salieri has the right idea, though: to sing with a varying of the voices -- as one might do in singing a Gloria or a Credo.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,704
    @Chris Garton-Zavesky

    When we had a Mass starting 1¼ hours after our EF, the priest banned us from singing the Full Tract on the first Sunday of Lent. He did like to give 30min sermons!

    Also in Switzerland a choir I occasionally sing with is expected to psalm tone the longer Tracts / Graduals, each Sunday.
  • Tomjaw,

    The first situation, while regrettable in terms of "bad planning", is a reality with which some of us must come to terms. (Our Oratory is under another roof, and so scheduling is sometimes very difficult.)

    If he banned you from singing the Tract in the full melodic form because he wanted to preach for 30 minutes, was his preaching (at least) edifyingly integrist?

    Why would the situation in Switzerland require psalm tones for the "longer Tracts/Graduals"?

  • Richard R.
    Posts: 774
    My understanding is that, so long as the priest recites the text as printed in the Missal (which, naturally, he would), the choir has liberty in the setting it sings, whether replacing the chant with a polyphonic setting or, presumably, some simpler chant or even psalm tone. I have been in an EF situation in which my time was indeed clerically restrained, and used the above assumption to drastically abbreviate Lauda Sion. I did the same for the Tracts of Lent 1 and Palm Sunday. This is not ideal, maybe even gross, but one does what one must, especially at the desire of the priest.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    The liturgical text must be sung as it is in the books, without alteration or inversion of the words, without undue repetition, without breaking syllables, and always in a manner intelligible to the faithful who listen."


    Looks pretty clear to me.

    As to Tract-shortening, we always used Rossini's psalm-tone versions, and would chop a few verses from the Dies Irae at funeral Masses.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,704
    @Chris Garton-Zavesky

    The sermons would ramble and repeat the same point... Anyway that priest is not with us now and the OF Mass after has been cancelled due to low attendance! We can now take as long as we like! Although the bar is open after Mass and we would not like the beer to get too warm!

    As for long Sermons I have timed a few Masses and have plenty of ammunition... Canon of the Mass takes ten minutes, Notices also take 10 minutes! and Sermons can take 20 mins! It then becomes very difficult to complain about the choir singing for about 5-10mins more.

    As for Switzerland some priests think that the N.O. in latin is a good idea and like german hymns more than the ancient Propers... lengthening the Mass for singing Propers is not something they like the idea of.
  • GerardH
    Posts: 411
    I know that in the OF, there is the option to sing only the last four verses of the sequence (i.e. starting at Ecce panis angelorum. Does this option not exist in the EF?

    Edit: this is what I'm doing with my choir. It's a far better option than no sequence at all.
  • raph
    Posts: 9
    Salieri
    That antiphonal arrangement may work. The vocal extension is still a bit challenging.

    tomjaw
    Nice resource, I'll take a look, tanks for sharing

    Chris
    I don't get what you mean with truncating the theological import of the text, but I agree there's a concern about liturgical appropriateness

    GerardH
    No, you must sing it entirely at least in recto tono
  • Raph,

    The text to be said (or, properly, sung) is a particular length because that's the text the Church approved. "Short form" and "optional longer form" are peculiar to the OF for a good reason. In fact, the text that says "Wives, be subject to your husbands" is optional when that reading appears in the OF.
  • raph
    Posts: 9
    @dad29

    i'm not sure, it seems to me that the text is prohibiting repetition of words that makes the liturgical text broken and awkward, like in Vivaldi's Glória: https://youtu.be/0ICW_iZcti4
    "Glória, glória... Glória, glória... In excelsis Deo. In excelsis Deo. Glória, glória, glória, glória in exceslsis Deo... :
    And pretty much every classical composers
    Many masses composed by renaissance composers contain a lot of repetitions and they're not banned
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,372
    without undue repetition, ... in a manner intelligible to the faithful
    The guidance quoted is not absolute in the way it is expressed. I don't find Vivaldi's paean of praise undue in it's repetition, or unintelligible. But there is music in use in which the separate voices have meaning obscured by repetitions. Perhaps not in liturgical use, Handel comes to mind (But I should check before making rash statements).
  • BruceL
    Posts: 1,072
    Here in Birmingham at St. Paul's for the last six years, we do the sequences in English, but the Corpus Christi (and September 15th) sequence is always in alternation. We intone/sing odds with the choir (or a group of singers), then have a cantor and congregation on the alternating verse (I know the structure of Lauda Sion is a little more tricky, but it works.) I'm generally not super in favor of cantors in front of the people, but in this sort of case, I don't think it's so bad. It leads to a better musical result for all, I think, because 24 verses is a lot of singing straight through. Plus, if you're already doing it in the vernacular as we are, then the alternation helps with a mini-lectio divina-type thing (you have some time to consider the text while the other "choir" sings). Just my $0.02. There are many ways to do it effectively.
    Thanked by 1Heath
  • Bruce,

    OF or EF?
  • BruceL
    Posts: 1,072
    OF. EF sequence in English would be illicit.
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,048
    Yes, it's long, and rangy. One pretty much has to sing it starting on C# (3 sharps), or at least at a half a step either way from there. And the top notes and the bottom notes will be problematic. But I've got a Schola of non-musicians, baritones and mezzi, and they can do it reasonably well. We do use organ. And if we had more people, of more variegated ranges, we'd split off high and low verses. But the Church tells us we can do it, so we find a way to do it. Just like the Church tells us that holiness is possible. No excuses!
  • BruceL
    Posts: 1,072
    We lay it out as below. Works pretty well, but this is the South, so generally people at the Sunday morning Masses sing well. +1 on the range issue, but I like to look at it as a tessitura issue. I think a half-step lower than JQ suggests is the sweet spot here.
    Thanked by 1Jim_Goeddel58