Does listening to and singing chant alter the mind's musical preferences?
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,025
    Over the past three months I have immersed myself in modal chant more frequently than in the past through listening, singing, and experimenting with composing in different modes. I have found that lately I no longer like certain modern dissonances, especially major 7ths and 9ths. I used to enjoy them, but now they are like fingernails on a chalkboard to my ears.

    Would a music theorist or educator please explain what's happening to my mind in the way I'm perceiving music and why modal chant might be having this effect on my perception?

    Has anyone else experienced anything similar? Is it permanent or temporary?
  • CharlesSA
    Posts: 163
    Well, all I can say is that, until recently, I was a big classical music lover. Then, I spent about 15 months at a monastery, where only chant is sung (and occasionally organ used). Now, although I think I could enjoy classical music under the right circumstances on occasion, I have no interest in anything but chant.

    I must say though, for me, I think it goes deeper than "changed musical preferences;" I think there is something going on deep in my soul and mind that is causing a certain revulsion to pretty much everything.
  • YES! Sounds do effect the brain and the body; and in various ways - good and not so good. This has been a subject of great interest to me for decades. It is massively complex with many kinds of academic studies done on this subject. I have read some studies on how sound even effects materials within a building on a long term basis including different kinds of stone and wood.

    The brain is particularly sensitive to sounds, tones and music. Sounds, tones and music can actually increase the health and formation of the brain and its functional operations as well as have a negative or even a destructive influence. Sounds, tones and music have their effects even on a cellular level on all things.

    One thing in particular was curious to me, why did GOD's instruction in regards to the building of the Solomonic Temple, specifically stated that NO stone was to be shaped by hammer and chisel or struck in any manner. Even the gold lined within the Temple was not to be beaten into thin sheets. Now lest you think I am hinting at new age craziness of crystals and all that garbage, that is the farthest thing on my mind. Rather the many scientific papers I have read on the subject of sounds, tones and such on crystalline and molecular structures as well as the sub-atomic and atomic level on living organisms.

    And one more mention - rhythm too, plays a critical roll on cellular development, growth and function!

    This entire subject would be great material for doctoral research, papers and thesis.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    I always liked chant - still do. I wouldn't want to listen to it exclusively, since there are plenty of great musical compositions out there besides chant. I find chant, and nearly everything else, can become tedious when overdone. Does chant affect me positively or negatively? Positively when sung well, negatively when not. Some days, you just can't beat silence.
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  • Yes, sound surely has influence on molecular structure. That renowned violins must be played instead of kept untouched in vaults is proof of that. But the original post’s focus on and discomfort with dissonant intervals seems a bit misplaced to me. Are we to dismiss the whole of polyphony? Or Bach, Brahms, Debussy and anyone else who composes in moving parts? Can we even argue that there is never any melodic tension in chant?

    Like Ken of Sarum, I welcome more serious research on the subject of chant’s impact on the body and emotional state, but some things we already know. Chant does calm and focus the mind so that we are more receptive to prayer. I am not the only one who experiences that. There is another aspect that is perhaps more in line with the observation of the original post. When I took my first chant class with Theodore Marier many years ago, he opened with these words: “I want to give you fair warning at the outset, chant can be very addictive.”

    I’m in no position to argue with that.
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  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    Can't speak to Alteration Of State....but I can say that after conducting a Chant-only choir for 5 years it became painfully clear that Chant really IS the ideal. All the rest (whether good music or not) sort of clutters up the Mass.

    And yes, Charles: occasional meaningful silence is very desirable!
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  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    At a certain point in attending this lecture series, which I recommend highly--gratefully the only one the School has fully videotaped as far as I can tell--I realized one difference between chant and polyphony that makes a huge difference for me.

    Polyphony "closes the circle" by making music inherently dialogical. Instead of a single unified voice appealing to God in praise or supplication, a group of singers tunes into one another.
  • Earl_GreyEarl_Grey
    Posts: 892
    This has been a topic of interest to me as well. Any links to actual research would be most appreciated. I'd love to develop a course on this topic--but not much time for research.

    I'm currently reading: All Shook Up: Music, Passion, and Politics by Carson Holloway.

    I've read Music and Morals: A Theological Appraisal of the Moral and Psychological Effects of Music by Basil Cole

    And then this video by Dr. John Cuddeback - Music & the Soul: Restoring or Destroying the Inner Man
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhZGU_joFzQ
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  • toddevoss
    Posts: 162
    You might be interested in the book: "This Is Your Brain On Music" by Daniel Levitin. Interesting research and theories about all kinds of music - but unfortunately nothing really on chant.
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  • toddevoss
    Posts: 162
    And to the OP's question. I have been listening to Chant quite a bit for the last year and it has had a bit of the same effect in terms of other music but not nearly as dramatic. I do clearly notice displacement - just listening to a lot more chant and a lot less of other music right now. But that is not the same as producing a revulsion for other music (but like I said I notice a bit of less "sympathy" with other music.
  • toddevoss
    Posts: 162
    There was one interesting empirical study of Gregorian Chant. "In a 1978 documentary called “Chant,” French audiologist, Dr. Alfred Tomatis, related how he was called upon to help the monks of a Benedictine monastery who suffered from fatigue, depression, and physical illness. He found that they usually took part in six to eight hours of chanting per day but due to a new edict, their chanting was halted. When Tomatis succeeded in re-establishing their daily chanting, the monks regained their well-being and were again full of life. His conclusion was that Gregorian chant is capable of charging the central nervous system along with the cortex of the brain thus having a direct effect on the monk’s overall happiness and health." From this link. https://catholicexchange.com/why-gregorian-chant-rocks
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  • May I go out on a limb and remind us all, that truly great music and its composer-creators almost always based their compositions on the principles, structures and melodies of plainsong chant. Almost all of lower baser profane music is not based on any of these aspects of plainsong chant.

    It is a source of great frustration to me that many pastors, especial of Protestant churches, support and promote profane music and yet profess to teach traditional conservative values and biblical orthodoxy. Although many of them seem to be sincere and learned, they are grossly, even tremendously ignorant and unaware of the horrific danger that such profane music is having on their flock. In addition to the destructive physiological influence such music has, it also subconsciously brainwashes and spiritually corrupts.

    To me, is it no wonder that the states of profound decay of societies and civilizations are in the mess and on the slippery slope to hell; sheep being pied pipered right into their own damnation while shouting Alleluias and Amens!

    Music IS more powerful than any sermon, advertisement or campaign, more powerful and longer lasting in the minds, hearts and souls than what most people can begin to understand or grasp. One day in heaven we will learn, I think, that all along Satan didn't have to work so hard at corrupting and leading so many to hell. All he need do is shine his light on the stages set before us while hypnotically seducing us with the power of music - the wrong music!
  • If you would know the moral state of any civilisation, take note of its music.
    - Confusius
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    based their compositions on the principles, structures and melodies of plainsong chant.


    Are you able to expand on this a bit? Some here would argue that Mozart did no such thing.....nor did Beethoven.

    I'm in agreement with your thesis but on a limited basis: that is that The Greats prioritized text, letting the music illuminate it, usually with excellent results. See, e.g., Brahms' Ein Deutsches Requiem.
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  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,151
    ... truly great music and its composer-creators almost always based their compositions on the principles, structures and melodies of plainsong chant.

    While I understand this idea and might be tempted to agree with it to a certain extent, I really think that these great composer-creators - already by the early Renaissance - had a greater palate from which they drew for their sacred music (and I assume we are discussing this in the realm of sacred not profane music).

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    Probably the most outstanding foil to this assumption that compositions were based on principles, structures, and (in particular) melodies of plainsong chant is the wide use in the Renaissance (from about 1450 on) of the early French secular song "L'homme armé" in settings of the Latin Mass, probably more times than any other secular song, since over 40 settings using "L'homme armé" are known, generally as a cantus firmus melody around which composers wove beautiful counterpoint, as well as as contrapuntal material itself, since the tune lends itself well to constructing musical canons. And the tune is unmistakable in nearly every setting, however complex.

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    Moreover, we are not talking about run of the mill composers ... the Missa L'homme armé super voces musicales and the Missa L'homme armé sexti toni by Josquin des Prez are among the best known. And more than one setting was written by each of the composers Matthaeus Pipelare, Pierre de La Rue, Cristóbal de Morales, Guillaume Du Fay, and Giovanni Pierluigi da Palestrina. Other Renaissance composers who wrote settings include Antoine Busnois, Guillaume Faugues, Johannes Regis, and Johannes Ockeghem. Even as late as the 17th century, the tune was used, by Giacomo Carissimi.

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    It is also worth noting that other songs (usually as cantus firmus melodies) were also used, sometimes several different songs in the same Mass setting. Indeed, the parody Mass genre (using sometimes sacred, sometimes sedular material) seems to have arisen in the early Renaissance. Jacob Obrecht's Missa Sub tuum presidium is a famous and early example that uses several melodies in addition to Sub tuum presidium used as a cantus firmus.
  • Mozart (I believe, if my memory is accurate) did say something to the effect that chant was the basis for all that had followed it. I seem to recall similar expressions by Beethoven, and even (ha!) Liszt, and several moderns. Trying, however, to divine any practical trace of such a sentiment in their music would yield very poor results. One often hears this in music history classes and, of course, chant symposia, but again, the evidence which would validate it is sparse. Most music of the post-renaissance epoch has little or no reference to chant. The only music, with rare exceptions, being written today with a chant reference or cf would be works for organ intended for ritual or sacred concert use.

    On the other hand and viewed in a different light, the validity of chant's fatherhood of all that followed in music history may be purchased by the incontrovertible fact that the earliest organum and polyphony, the germ of all our unique western musical patrimony, grew directly out of chant and was unthinkable except in its relationship to chant, even as an ornament of the chant; and, of course, it was this nascent polyphony, with or without a cf, from which evolved all that followed. Of course, few in history have been aware of this lineage. Who knows what Mozart meant when he uttered his famous sentiment? It isn't likely that he consciously knew about the mediaeval motet as the great-great-great...grandfather of his 'Jupiter' or Don Giovanni - or that he had ever heard of Perotin or de Machaut. And, we would be hard pressed to uncover any direct formal relationship in his music. Which, though, isn't to say that it isn't there. It is! - All western musical structures of post-mediaeval times are, consciously or unconsciously, the progeny of organum and the earliest polyphony. Perotin is looking over the shoulders of all from du Fay to Whitacre.
  • Earl_GreyEarl_Grey
    Posts: 892
    All Common Practice Period Western Music has its roots in Chant. The tonal system, functional harmony, balanced forms, melodic ideals, etc are all based on certain assumptions about what is good, true and beautiful. While not all composers were immersed in chant or directly inspired by it, they were at least in a sense indirectly affected even if only second hand through the music that did inspire them.

    Most importantly the Western World was once known as Christendom. Christian (Catholic) morals, liturgy etc. were part of the culture, even for those not actively practicing the Faith. It's not until the modern era when composers, artists and philosophers intentionally reject Christianity (God) and seek inspiration in non-Christian cultures that we see a rapid moral decay which is reflected in and inspired by music that is marked by ugliness, distortion, dissonant, loud and rhythmically unsettling.

    Consider that Stravinsky's the Rite of Spring scandalized the public and started a riot when it premiered in 1913. By 1940 is was deemed acceptable to be featured in a major Disney film.
  • There's a book of short essays by Josef Pieper which is very interesting for artists/musicians. The essays were talks he gave at various events. It's called "Only the Lover Sings: Art and Contemplation". Ignatius Press, 1990.

    A few snippets: "We now realize why and to what extent music plays a role in man's formation and perfection - as contribution or hindrance, and both, once again, beyond any conscious efforts toward formation, teaching, or education. We also realize here how indispensable it is to reflect on these very direct forces and influences. "

    "What does matter, however, is to recognize at all (and to put in the right order!) the intimate relationship between the music made and listened to in a society on the one hand, and the inner existential condition of such a society on the other, no different today than in Plato's time!

    We ourselves, however, are probably to be counted among those who, in Plato's words, see the entire realm of music as “mere amusement", while in truth that intimate relationship between music, offered or received, and inner existential ethos all the more ominously degenerates the less a proper order is attempted. The situation commonly encountered shows that not even the awareness of the possibility of such an order is present, much less a concrete notion of such an order as the ideal."
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  • And just an aside: I have an older friend who has been deaf since early adulthood. She loved and played folk music as a youth/young adult, and had been very sad to have lost that. Even with the cochlear implant she received later, music just sounds like noise. It's not possible to hear with enough clarity to really get the harmonies, melodies, and details of rhythm.

    When she first heard Gregorian chant, she was delighted. Because it is unison and without instruments, she was able to really hear it. It opened up the idea of experimenting with song, chant and other forms of vocal-only music, and she's recently started writing her own folk tunes again, singing them for fun despite not having perfect 'ear' for tunes.
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  • My oh my! How does one, poor and feeble, respond to such comments of learning and lofty insights. As an INFJ, all I can do is to seek out with simplicity any poor attempt to comment and pray that in my suggestions, the complexities wont be overwhelming and muddy the subject with a host of polyphonic thoughts and themes!

    For to some an explanation is not necessary, and to others, no explanation is possible. Please do not misunderstand me, for I intend no sarcasm; I am a simple soul in growing closer to GOD.

    However, I perhaps implied that only truly great composers created truly great music on the basis of the forms, functions, principles and every musical internal workings of plainsong. Is this not so? The more one dives into and studies chant, does it not become more and more obvious and clear that the many great composers knew plainsong well and used it as foundational building blocks in their works? How could we, lesser intellects that we are, say contrary to their words and intentions? Certainly only GOD knows their mind and thoughts and every working of their hearts when creating musical works. And if I might add, it may be that "intention" of a great composer should be also equally considered as to whether such composition might be sacred or profane.

    But, I think we digress from the original thesis of this thread. It is my assertion, in my opinion, that some sounds, tones and combinations thereof, can and do indeed possess creative, wholesome and positive influence on all things. Whereas, there are some that do not! And furthermore, it is the "intention" behind the use of such that needs be considered. For example, a scalpel, in and of itself, in ways can be a beautiful thing, created by a great mind. However, its use would determine whether there was good or evil behind it.

    Music is a tool, a great tool. Some ancients say GOD sang creation into being. I would like to believe this. Is it not interesting how music also plays a key role in other future events as well? (The trump of GOD, of angels, of saints singing around the throne, the singing of a new song and hymn).

    I put it to you that whether composers like Mozart, Beethoven or even Stravinsky, intentionally or unintentionally used chant, that is was the Holy Spirit using them and music, in an act of creation through divine inspiration. Evil, likewise, in its demented and twisted envy of GOD, uses music through its progeny to corrupt and destroy. As I see it, the same tool, used by two actors, placed in the hands of man, for two entirely different outcomes; one intention for love through creation, the other for hate through destruction.

  • davido
    Posts: 874
    Two thoughts I haven’t seen covered here:

    - The post-Renaissance chant that the great eighteenth and nineteenth century composers knew was quite different from the Solesmes chant that we know. It may be that their music was influenced by the renaissance chant in ways that are not well known.

    - the strong-weak motion that characterize the ends of chant phrases is the predecessor of the cadence. Chant gets that strong-weak ending from the accents of the Latin language, but would we even have V-I cadences without this strong-weak motion? This sort of accent certainly isn’t characteristic of all languages, English being a notable example

    I think there might be a PhD musicology dissertation - that I will never write - in that last statement
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    We would. Overtones influence the strengths & weaknesses of harmonic progression by their very existence. V-I is the strongest relationship outside the unison/octave no matter if you’re singing in Latin or Swahili.