"And with your spirit"
  • thredboskier345
    Posts: 15
    Dear Friends,
    As some of you know, I am living currently in the german countries.
    I was recently in a discussion about the correct tones when the congregation answers the priest "and with your spirit" (Und mit deinem Geiste).
    How do I know which are the correct tones to sing?
    Is it in the Missal, or is there a 1500 year old tradition here?

    For the Forma Extraordinaria, I would look in a liber usualis, but my question is about the forma ordinaria.

    Thank you for your assistance,

    Jason.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,365
    It mimics the priestly formula that precededed it and varies throughout the mass or office.
    For most dialogues preceding collects and such it is usually recto tono, unless the priest does something different with his 'the Lord be with you'. Sometimes the priest will sing a two-pitch formula on la-do, in which case the answer would copy that. At the dialogue which prefaces the canon the formula is a more elaborate three pitch one, mimicing the priestly tone that preceded it.
  • Elmar
    Posts: 500
    Dear Jason,

    Welcome to my home area!
    Have you got the German/Austrian official hymnal, the "Gotteslob"?
    At No. 581-591 (p. 645-676) you will find the fixed parts of the Mass, including chanted dialogues in German and Latin.
    German ordinaries can be found an No. 126-139 (p. 237-245).
    Thanked by 2igneus canadash
  • thredboskier345
    Posts: 15
    Thanks M. Osborn and Elmar!
    The Gotteslobtip is especially helpful.

    In principle though, are suchq questions decided by the authority of the church, e.g. in a missal, or in the practice of the "Volk" over many years?

    Many thanks.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Thredboskier345,

    Now that they exist, they're printed in missals.

    I would hazard a guess that the formulae for the dialogues originated in Hebrew ritual, but I certainly don't know that history well enough to call my notion an educated conjecture.

    In England, the celebrating of Evening Prayer often involves many distinct parts singing at once (but I don't think we qualify that as Polyphony)…. but, in my experience, congregations (even Anglican ones) don't respond to each bidding with spontaneous poly-phonic answers.

  • thredboskier345
    Posts: 15
    Another question has occured to me regarding the collects in the mass:
    There are basically two tones that are provided for, both in the forma ordinaria and the forma extraordinaria: One is mainly recto tono, with minor-thirds; the other is whole tones.
    Is anybody able to say which of the church modes they are?
    Sincerely,
    Thredboskier.
  • thredboskier345
    Posts: 15
    And another question on this subject:
    Does anybody have a good guide for a Priest, how he should sing the collects, apart from what is in the Liber Usualis?
    Is there a metrum in the tonus sollemnis, or just a "punctum" (full stop)?
    Many thanks!
  • madorganist
    Posts: 906
    Chanting according to a formula is something that can easily be unnecessarily over-complicated. With that said, you can find fully notated collects for most Masses here:
    http://www.windsorlatinmass.org/latin/chant.htm
  • joerg
    Posts: 137
    The sung acclamations in the German Missal are usually bad adaptations of the corresponding latin chants. The main problem is that those who wrote those chants decided early on that the German language doesn't allow for melismas. But this makes e.g. the post elevation acclamation "Deinen Tod, o Herr verkünden wir" (Mortem tuam annuntiamus, Domine) almost unsingable.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • thredboskier345
    Posts: 15
    Thanks heaps friends! Great tips and reminders!
  • thredboskier345
    Posts: 15
    Please excuse me when I continue to have so many questions regarding this topic:

    Can somebody please tell me, how is a metrum supposed to sound in the tonus sollemnis oration?

    Thank you.
  • madorganist
    Posts: 906
    It's just la to sol to la. Two syllables down a whole step then back up. Look at the examples.
  • Elmar
    Posts: 500
    ... But this makes e.g. the post elevation acclamation "Deinen Tod, o Herr verkünden wir" (Mortem tuam annuntiamus, Domine) almost unsingable.
    What exactly do you mean, Jörg?
    This does not match up with my youth experience; I cannot remember any difficulty (apart from holding the pitch in unaccompanied congregational singing).
  • igneusigneus
    Posts: 349
    @joerg My experience is the same as @Elmar 's. I always found the German chant tunes as they can be found in Gotteslob (including the memorial acclamation "Deinen Tod, o Herr ...") singable and quite beautiful when I studied in Germany. But I am, of course, not a German native speaker.
  • Felipe Gasper
    Posts: 804
    https://www.athenaeum.edu/liturgical-resources.aspx
    ^^ Here is a page that has most of the Collects from the English translation pointed. The project has been incomplete for years, though, so I suspect the author doesn’t intend to complete it.
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