Hamilton Diocese : Liturgical Instruction "Gathered Into One"
  • PaxTecum
    Posts: 302
    Also, the people don't need to sing that stuff. By definition, the Propers belong to the choir.

    The people can and should sing the Ordinaries and normal responses to the mass.

    The REAL problem are the priests that don't sing the mass.
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  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,916
    Settefrati, if brevity is the soul of wit, (and despite the quote coming from a questionable character in Mr. Shakespeare, I agree), you have summed up the liturgical crisis of the last fifty years in a very witty way!
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  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,369
    Settefrati: I agree, but several members of this forum have composed choral settings of the Ordinary. Those who direct choirs in Cathedrals and Basilicas need to place the balance differently from volunteers in one-priest rural parishes with no paid staff. One size does not fit all, but the Church has provided music for all.
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  • PaxTecum
    Posts: 302
    And in those masses where choral ordinaries are used the people will obviously not sing the ordinary. But they should still always be singing “amen, and with thy spirit, glory to you o lord, praise to you lord Jesus Christ, thanks be to god, etc” in whatever language. Preferably Latin
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  • Schönbergian
    Posts: 1,063
    What would be interesting would be to somehow compose a plainchant setting that could be chorally augmented, perhaps with a cantor to lead the people through their part. I'm thinking of some of Tallis's cantus firmus motets, where he starts with the continuous plainchant and builds a polyphonic "web" around it. Then we could truly have the best of both worlds.
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    Aren't there multiple Mass settings that use a Gregorian Ordinary for the first iteration, and then a polyphonic variation for the 2nd and 3rd iterations (Kyrie, Agnus Dei), and then some that have Gregorian/Polyphonic "verses" in the Gloria, and a Gregorian incipit for the Sanctus?
    Perhaps we should start utilizing some more of our musical treasury, rather than looking for new compositions that might simply do the same.

    That, and it's amazing what has been tailored specifically to the idea of PIPs singing, just to have them not, when the choir could have been singing something better, by themselves, anyway.
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  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    I have to wonder if the (ubiquitous) choices for both the "Jubilate Deo" and ICEL MR3 amalgam settings have done more disservice than not for the recovery of chant at service here in the US?
    Thanked by 3CharlesW Paul F. Ford MarkB
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,369
    More than the preceding ubiquity of that pseudo-Gregorian Missa VIII?
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,156
    I am further informed that (1) The 1963 Grail as found in the CBW III may be used until CBW IV is available; and (2) the Instruction requires the congregation to "participate" (ie sing something) during the Responsorial Psalm, and insists that only the psalms from the Lectionary may be used: therefore excluding the use of both Graduals.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,369
    Yes, the instruction "insists that only the psalms from the Lectionary may be used: therefore excluding the use of both Graduals" and references GIRM 61!
    The Responsorial Psalm
    61. ... Instead of the Psalm assigned in the Lectionary, there may be sung either the Responsorial Gradual from the Graduale Romanum, or the Responsorial Psalm or the Alleluia Psalm from the Graduale Simplex, as described in these books.
    I am glad I do not have to work to this.
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,156
    It is true (and I never noticed it until today) that GIRM 61 when describing and implicitly allowing "in directum" psalmody only says this case is an exception to the "normal" one in which the people participate by singing a response. It does seem possible to interpret it as meaning that in directum singing the people participate by singing the whole psalm together. It's what I was told to do in that case, anyway.

    In fact we rarely if ever use in directum psalmody, but we do sometimes sing the verses with more than one psalmist singing together. However, I suspect that (3) the Instruction now requires the verses to be sung by one person (unless by the whole congregation in directum).
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,694
    How many parishes in the diocese of Hamilton Ontario regularly used the Gradual? My guess is if the number is greater than one, it can't be more than two.
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,156
    Roman Gradual, actual parish, regular use? definitely zero.

    Simple Gradual in NRSV English as By Flowing Waters, other non-parish groups, occasionally? I'll go with "a few" .
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    How many parishes

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6rHeD5x2tI
  • Casavant Organist
    Posts: 800
    So it's been a while since this document, and choir seasons have since winded down. How have those of you who are in the Hamilton Diocese implemented the document?

    I brought some guys from SMCS to Oakville to sing a Votive Mass of St. Josemaria Escriva, with Bishop Crosby celebrating. We didn't sing a communion motet, but I did have a 10-minute choral prelude. Funnily enough, we were asked to basically break the rule and add Salve Regina just after the Final Blessing before the recessional.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,369
    The Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops (CCCB) has hired Ms. Christina Ronzio as the next Director of the CCCB English-language office for liturgy and the sacraments. Currently Director of Liturgy for the Diocese of Hamilton.
    I don't remember this lady being mentioned in this thread. Anybody with the knowledge to comment?
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,694
    Christina was the Director of the Office of Worship of my home diocese when I lived there. She was a very kind person.
    Thanked by 2chonak Andrew_Malton
  • Casavant Organist
    Posts: 800
    .
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,156
    Ah, but singing the Marian antiphon after the final blessing is no longer during the liturgy, right? So not an "addition" ...

    By way of implementation, or at least response, to the Instruction:
    * In some places I know of, they have replaced cantor - solo at Communion by something responsorial, especially in one place where they have started singing Rice's SCG.
    * In the place I usually sing, we have added the proper Offertory, keeping a hymn as well: and we have added the proper Introit as a "prelude" : both from SCG. Well have also stopped singing a hymn at Communion, at least for the time being: we sing the proper antiphon instead. (Yes, the SCG uses the old translation, but ssh! it doesn't matter much really.)
    * In another place where I sing and direct a schola from September through April, there might be a need to, ahem, sing less chant, or something... because the Instruction doesn't seem very friendly towards it. But any such changes would only start in September.
  • Simon
    Posts: 153
    Perhaps the Gregorian Institute of Canada (whose Board of Directors include 2 members at Hamilton's McMaster University) might comment. I hereby invite the Institute to do so if appropriate.

  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,156
    I have now been informed. The information is not written down, but certainly has been "made clear" . They won't write it down, of course, because then it would be quoted publicly.

    So, it is the Bishop's and the Chancellor's wish that at parish Masses in the Diocese of Hamilton:
    * only music from the CBW III and the "Celebrate in Song" book be used
    * (hence three Mass settings to choose from)
    * oh and the chants in the Missal but only those
    * absolutely no plainsong
    * the people must be able to sing everything all the time

    So no chant Masses, no sung propers, no choral music.

    There are some other "wishes" but they aren't about music.

    I'm going to take a break from sacred music for a while, I think.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,148
    I'm sorry it has become so bleak there, Andrew. My thoughts and prayers are with you.
    Thanked by 2Andrew_Malton Casavant Organist
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    been there, Andrew... run to the hills
    Thanked by 2Andrew_Malton Casavant Organist
  • Casavant Organist
    Posts: 800
    Absolutely no plainsong

    So does Agnus VIII count as plainsong? That's what I use, and the pastor hasn't put up a fight. I also don't use anything from CIS.
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,295
    Pardon me for being a conspiracy theorist, and feel free to inform me or show me why I'm totally wrong.

    Is it possible, @Andrew Malton, that this is more about what your pastor wants (or even perhaps what a large donor wants), and he is using the bishop/chancellor/vicar general/whoever to make it seem like it's not really his decision?

    At the very least, it seems like there's going to be some selective enforcement here. No one is going to have a lovely soprano soloist sing "Ave Maria" on Wednesday? If someone did, the chancery is going to complain about it? I don't think I buy it.
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  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,156
    Donor, certainly not. Pastor, well, yes in the sense that it's he who informed us (ie me plus the founders of the now - disbanded schola). But the pastor is fresh from a conference with some of his brother priests at the Chancery Office. He might be "fencing" the situation, to avoid getting grief, but I'm perfectly sure he's basically following what he's been told.
    Thanked by 2irishtenor CHGiffen
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    PURPLE BOLD

    This is how we fill the pews, teach the faith, preserve our heritage, and bring people closer to God.

    /PURPLE BOLD
    Thanked by 3Andrew_Malton Carol eft94530
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,703
    PURPLE BOLD
    This is how we fill the pews, teach the faith, preserve our heritage, and bring people closer to God.
    /PURPLE BOLD


    I don't think the purple bold is needed, I am in Switzerland and have just come back from a Pontifical High Mass EF... the occasion is a larger church has been given to host the local TLM community on Sundays and Feasts, Mass time is 10.30. The reason is that each Pastor has around six parishes (OF) to look after and this Church does not see normal use, Many places now only have deacon led (OF) services. As for vocations forget it. The OF church here is almost dead and ready to be replaced by a growing EF Church, so the pews will be filled, we teach the Faith and heritage and bring in converts as we all become closer to God.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,694
    I visited the Basilica of Our Lady Immaculate in Guelph yesterday - in the Diocese of Hamilton. It is a wonderful spot - if you ever get the chance to visit.
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  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,156
    It is indeed a wonderful spot, with a fine acoustic. Once I arrived slightly late (blush) for a schola rehearsal before a Mass, and on entering wondered where our director had found half a dozen more singers. But no, when I got to the loft I saw that the full, full sound was the usual group of us!

  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Tomjaw,

    Punctuation makes the difference. I take him to mean that the forbidding of plainsong (and all the rest) is in stark contrast to the duties we have. If I'm right, then the sarcasm is warranted. If, as you suspect, he means that teaching the faith and the rest is inappropriate to filling the pews, then either he's crazy or you're mistaken.
  • Casavant Organist
    Posts: 800
    I've sung and played at the Basilica before and I find the choir to be difficult to hear if you're closer to the front of the church. The organ? Different story. It's like a 10-second reverb. What a spectacular instrument. Too bad they aren't immune to the liturgical ridiculousness that goes on in the Diocese.

    The organ is a 1919 Casavant in the French Symphonic style. It's quite worthy of note.
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  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,152
    All this reminds me of the first Chant Intensive I went to. One of the priests there was from a diocese whose bishop had forbidden the use of Gregorian Chant. He told us he could get in trouble just by being at the Chant Intensive.
    Thanked by 1Andrew_Malton
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,499
    And my son just chose Laurier. Oh &$@*!.
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,156
    At a certain place, @irishtenor, for a solemn Assumption Mass yesterday, the schola had rehearsed and planned to sing Byrd's Magnificat after the communion antiphon. A few days before, though, they were obliged to make it a "prelude" instead, and to substitute Franck's Panis Angelicus, because "everyone knows that".

    (Full disclosure: I wasn't there, but I heard from some who were.)

    To choose music that all the faithful more or less already know and can sing, takes precedence of all other judgements. This is being enforced, although not uniformly yet.
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,295
    Oof, that sounds very unfortunate indeed.
  • pfreese
    Posts: 147
    I don’t live in the Hamilton diocese, but any chance you could go to the bishop directly? If he’s previously asked for a Salve Regina after the final blessing, seemingly in contravention of his [supposed] directive, then I get the sense he either didn’t intend for it to be interpreted this way or doesn’t know about the needless tension it’s causing. I’m not defending him, but you’d be amazed at all the things that slip a bishop’s attention when running a diocese, just by the nature of how busy and complicated their job is (which is why competent underlings are a must). If you respectfully approach him armed with a CA GIRM and other likeminded DoM’s, I have a hard time believing he won’t hear you out and give you at least a small concession. I know from working with bishops that they don’t like needless disunity in their diocese, and I can’t think of a more needless hill to die on.
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,499
    I like pfreese's suggestion a lot. But I think the students should go as a group to the bishop and state their case. There's nothing like a group of young people asking the bishop to let them sing Latin chant. I'd like to hear him reject them.
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,295
    Love it, canadash. I say go for it!
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  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,703
    Start a group singing EF Vespers or Compline, it should be easy to find a church... Then people begin to ask why this choir does not sing at Mass. This has worked in the U.K.
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  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,156
    Those most immediately affected by these restrictions are a group of currently about ten singers, some of whom formed a schola about two years ago to sing vernacular chant at their (student) Mass. The Bishop (and the Chancellor!) has heard them twice, if I am not mistaken.

    Also affected (by the Instruction which began this thread) are a few altar servers whose practice of kneeling for Holy Communion is forbidden to them qua altar servers.

    Less immediately affected are the students and parishioners of the host parish. Among whom are some who have praised and valued the singing of the schola, and some (maybe more) who have spoken against.

    There is Compline sung a few times a month. As far as I know the priest has not asked for that to stop. But he doesn't attend and it isn't a public Mass.
  • pfreese
    Posts: 147
    “The Bishop (and the Chancellor!) has heard them twice, if I am not mistaken.”

    Did the bishop ask them to stop?
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,156
    Well of course not! Not then and there.

    Some people think that those Masses were among the ones that needed reining in, though. Certainly "the Bishop and the Chancellor didn't like X" has been part of the story we've been told.
  • pfreese
    Posts: 147
    Pardon me if I’m beating a dead horse, but I’m still not quite getting that your bishop really wants this sort of crusade against “traditional” sacred music. A lot of his supposed orders mentioned here seem be “he said she said” statements via his underlings (who I suspect may have ideological stake in this game), unless he really is using them to take the fall for a divisive policy. I could be wrong; he could theoretically want to purge his see of all chant and polyphony (the only two forms of sacred music specifically lauded by SC and GIRM mind you...). But personally, I would remain at least somewhat skeptical until you or someone else following this discussion hears the bishop say it himself. This whole situation seems rather odd to me, which is why I think clearing this up with the bishop personally would be a worthwhile endeavor.
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,156
    So at the other place where I sing, which is also my own parish of some fifteen years, the Instruction has come down to this (as announced today at the first choir rehearsal): One, our practice of singing the Communion proper (from Richard Rice's book), established five years ago at least, is now summarily canceled. In its place there will be Communion songs, with refrain, from Celebrate In Song. Two, there is no longer a place for prepared choir music (that is, anthems or similar) because the director habitually programmed those for after the Communion antiphon; but H.E. the Bishop of Hamilton has solemnly decreed that there must be silence after the (common) Communion song. Three, the singing of the introit antiphon prior to the Entrance Song, a practice begun rather more recently, is also ended.

    Bang, bang, that noise is doors shutting.
  • pfreese
    Posts: 147
    From a guy that was appointed by Benedict? Yikes...

    I’ll sing a In Paradisum for your music program...
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,295
    I'm simply aghast at this grotesque abuse of power, which will do nothing but destroy what liturgical beauty there has been in the Hamilton Diocese.
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  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,369
    The bishop seems to disregard the views of CCCB which can be found here.
    The reception of Communion has traditionally been accompanied by the singing of a psalm with an appropriate antiphon. The texts for the Communion antiphons in the Roman Missal are intended to be sung with appointed psalm verses which are indicated in the Graduale Romanum or the Graduale Simplex. Musicians may wish to consult these books. Settings of Psalm 23 and Psalm 34 are especially recommended for the Communion procession.
    I note, without comment but with emphasis, that on page 4 it says :-
    Acknowledgements
    Principal writer of the original material is Msgr. Murray Kroetsch. He was assisted by Heather Reid for the important judgments (nos. 28-31).
  • Schönbergian
    Posts: 1,063
    I'm just unsure how local authorities can so clearly contradict Vatican documents. Even something like STTL didn't directly block off parts of the GIRM, and that was controversial enough.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,157
    I'm not sure that a bishop has the authority to forbid options that are expressly permitted by the GIRM. Perhaps a reader expert in liturgical law can offer some thoughts on the question.
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