Notre Dame, Paris: Creed straight into preface?
  • GambaGamba
    Posts: 539
    The Masses I’ve heard at Notre Dame (in person and on YouTube) seem to move directly from the Creed into the Preface Dialogue. One hears, essentially:

    ....Et vitam venturi saeculi, amen.
    (motet and/or organ improvisation)
    Dominus vobiscum | Et cum spiritu tuo.
    Sursum corda &c.

    Thus it seems the Universal Prayer is omitted, the Orate, fratres is either omitted or limited to priest and server, and the Prayer over the Offerings is once again indeed Secret. It sounds for all the world like the EF, excepting the audible “per omnia saecula saeculorum” at the end of the Secret.

    As an organist, this praxis feels much more natural and logical than the modern sung Creed–talking and response–brief music–more talking and response–more talking–Preface (though of course the UP, Secret, and Orate, fratres can theoretically all be sung).

    Is this in any way rubrically defensible, or have they got an indult, or is this just Gallic pious custom?



  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Gamba,

    What you're experiencing is in an OF in Latin?
  • GambaGamba
    Posts: 539
    Yes, OF, so a mix of Latin and French.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Agnus Dieus, qui tiens les peches mundi; miserere nobis?
    Thanked by 1MNadalin
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,369
    The rubrics permit omission of the Universal Prayer, and certainly the preparation of the gifts need not be said audibly. However omitting Orate Fratres is, I think, illicit - after all music is given for this dialogue with the people.
  • IdeK
    Posts: 87
    I have just watched the video of August 15th in Notre-Dame de Paris. The Universal prayer is indeed omitted, which is quite uncommon in France. Then the preparation of the gifts is said unaudibly while the organ plays - which is frequent here in France, when there is a paid organist (nearly everywhere in Paris) or a choir (much less fréquent), or simply an hymn sung by the people.

    The auxiliary bishop then says loudly : "Prions ensemble, au moment d'offrir le sacrifice de toute l'église", which is the french translation of the Orate Fratres. For some reason none of my business it is much shorter than the latin original, and not at all a litteral translation, so that may induce non-french-speaking people to mistake it for the dialogue before the Preface.

    So nothing illicit here...
    Thanked by 2a_f_hawkins igneus
  • Marc Cerisier
    Posts: 516
    At the 11:30 Sunday mass there I attended on the 5th of this month, there were intercessions and a typical offertory collection, during which the altar and gifts were prepared.

    It's hard to imagine they'd pass up the opportunity to take a collection...
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    My experience with the French is that they do whatever they please.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW M. Jackson Osborn
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,369
    I have a similar query, by coincidence. On the Assumption I attended Mass in the use of Divine Worship: The Missal. The choir sang Mozart's Spatzenmesse (apart from the Creed), including Sanctus and Benedictus joined. The celebrant chose to start the Roman Canon during this and then wait to continue at 'We beseech thee ...' (=Hanc igitur...). This appeared to cause the congregation some confusion, in that some knelt as soon as they realised what the celebrant was doing (some sooner than others) while some remained standing until the choir had finished.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Prions ensemble, au moment d'offrir le sacrifice de toute l'église", which is the french translation of the Orate Fratres.


    Evidently the French still use the "dynamic equivalence" method of betraying both languages?
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • IdeK
    Posts: 87
    @CGZ : yes. We still use the translation from the 70's. I understand the new translation is to be rolled out in the next two years but that's what they have been saying since 2012...
    I've heard that this precise point is one of the difficulties delaying everything. Basically the French translation is beautiful, and the faithful love it for most of them - the problem being it is not what is in the Latin missal.

    @Marc Cerisier : well, on the Assomption vidéo, there is a Priest making an annoying announcement to explain the gathering and asking for generosity...

    @dad29 : it depends where you are. Some countryside places are quite weird indeed, but I've seen the same in Ireland so.... However, in Paris, most parishes are quite respectful - on the model of three or four hymn sandwich of course, and very little chant except for rare "Gregorian masses", usually said in French but chanted in latin with full propers from the Graduale Romanum. Alas, my parents' parish offered one for 20+ years and the pastor decided to get rid of it this summer... Sad.

  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,365
    .
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    most parishes are quite respectful - on the model of three or four hymn sandwich of course, and very little chant except for rare "Gregorian masses",


    of what is this respectful?
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    Idek:
    it depends where you are.


    Right here in the USA!!

    (Yes, there are plenty of US-exclusive wacko practices, too.)
  • IdeK
    Posts: 87
    @CGZ : Well, they choose in the options of the Missal, that proposes "a suitable hymn" instead of the Proper chant - and hymns are neither heretical nor ridiculous, at least for the lyrics, which is quite a lot.

    Besides, most Parisian priests chant in French the dialogues and some chant the collects, preface and maybe even the Gospel on feast days.

    The basic ordinary usually is a singy-songy stuff in Latin, except for the Gloria (chanted in French or R&A with R in Latin) and Creed (said or, on occasions in some parishes, Credo III "because the church is international and our young people ought to know it when they go to WYD").

    Believe me, I cry my eyes out of my head since I left Paris for a suburbian diocese. (Yes, Paris is a diocese in itself and the suburbs are five distinct dioceses).
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