New Kyrie (possibly expanded in future)
  • Schönbergian
    Posts: 1,063
    I created this for a university composition assignment, partially to spite the teacher who essentially said "homophony rules the roost nowadays and polyphony is just outmoded". Thinking of expanding it to at least a partial Mass.

    It would be dishonest to not acknowledge the debt this piece pays to Vaughan Williams's Mass in G minor, which is similarly "Stile antico con poco licenze"
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Jeremy,

    You seem to have a certain debt to Flor Peeters, who seemed to take delight in 9ths, 2nds, and 7ths between parts in his organ works. (I'm trying to learn some of his pieces based on Gregorian melodies).
  • Marc Cerisier
    Posts: 516
    Very nice.

    I would suggest, though, consistent slurring and a more modern approach to beaming, so as to not obscure the rhythm. As notated, sight reading could be challenging.

    Marc
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,152
    Looks challenging! I like a challenge!
  • Schönbergian
    Posts: 1,063
    Marc, as a fervent disciple of traditional notation I would have to disagree. Plenty of additional slurs would only clutter the page. My notation is consistent with common practice in old Edition Peters scores and results in the least notation necessary for the job.
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn Richard Mix
  • MarkS
    Posts: 282
    https://music.indiana.edu/departments/academic/composition/style-guide/

    Scroll down for beaming, for instance.
    Thanked by 1Marc Cerisier
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,152
    Mark, that link doesn't work.
  • MarkS
    Posts: 282
    trying again!
    https://music.indiana.edu/departments/academic/composition/style-guide/

    Thanked by 2a_f_hawkins Marc Cerisier
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,365
    A very nice Kyrie indeed. Worthy of being sung at Walsingham.
    I hope that it does get expanded into a complete mass.
    One's mouth drops at a university professor who teaches that polyphony is a dead language.
    Why is he where he is?
    How did he get there?

    (Comment pruned.)
  • Marc Cerisier
    Posts: 516
    MJO—while that might also come into it that's not exactly what my focus was. I highly recommend Elaine Gould's Behind Bars for a thorough discussion on beaming and text underlay.

    Schönbergian—It's absolutely your right as the editor to prepare your edition in whatever style you please, and I had no intent to imply otherwise. From my perspective of a engraver, who is also an organist—I had difficulty on the first read through. So while there are debates among engravers that go on for ages on the topic of syllabic beaming, I was focusing more on the fact that I personally was tripped up by the notation. Examples—bass, m.6—the rhythm crosses the midpoint of the measure; soprano, m.2—the underlying rhythm (4/4, C) is lost... 3+1+2+2. They accurately represent the musical content, but over the last few hundred years, as conventions in engraving have evolved, these are not as common to see as it might have been in the past.

    As I said right from the top, it's a lovely work, and I look forward to seeing the additional movements should you add them.

    Best,
    Marc
    Thanked by 3M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen irishtenor
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,148
    Elaine Gould's Behind Bars is at my side continually when I am preparing scores. It's indispensable and represents the gold standard for engraving music.

    The offending dotted quarters that begin beat 2 of m.4 in the Alto and m.6 in the Bass parts are particularly noticeable, because each spans the midpoint of the measure (each should be changed to a quarter tied to an eighth). In 4/4 time, only a half note that begins on beat 2 is usually allowed to span the midpoint of the measure.

    Sadly, as in other (including non-musical) contexts, rules seem destined to be honoured in the breech breach far too often.
    Thanked by 2Marc Cerisier irishtenor
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    You could also experiment with doubling the note values, going from common time to alla breve. This might help clean-up the score.
    Thanked by 2Marc Cerisier irishtenor
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,156
    More honor'd in the breach: (of a custom) more honourable to break than to obey.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Schönbergian
    Posts: 1,063
    Mark: I own Behind Bars. Without turning this into a discussion about notation, I feel the examples used in all notation books to demonstrate the "superiority" of metrical beaming are specifically tailored to situations where I would not hesitate to use metrical beaming myself. I merely feel that in music with note values such as this, it is cleaner to dispense with unnecessary slurs. I do not feel my music is rhythmically complex enough to warrant it. That being said, I understand the legitimate errors you pointed out and will fix them.

    MJO: I don't want to "out" the person in question. Suffice to say that he was not a permanent professor but, rather, a guest lecturer, and a contemporary composer who has occasionally written for the Mass but only sees it as a text to be set and not a liturgical construct. He did make it out that his opinion was the dominant one, though.

    As a singer, I always find polyphonic music in all styles and idioms to be far more idiomatic, and I exclusively compose for the voice in a polyphonic style for that reason.
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn Casavant Organist
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    Chuck says, "honored in the breech."

    Andrew says, "honored in the breach."

    There is an important difference between the two!
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,387
    Far be it from me to break up the love fest going on here, but I find the beaming throughout to be inconsistent, as I do the switching back and forth between "e-le-i-son" (four syllables) and "e-lei-son" (three syllable). In regards to the latter, choose one or the other and stick with it.
    Thanked by 5M. Jackson Osborn melofluent CHGiffen Casavant Organist Marc Cerisier
  • Schönbergian
    Posts: 1,063
    Ron, I assume you have an issue with Hassler's and Byrd's handling of this as well, among others?
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Shoenbergian,

    I don't know if it makes any difference to anything you will do, but since you're new around here, Ronkrisman is Father Ronald Krisman.
  • Schönbergian
    Posts: 1,063
    Thanks, Chris. I was under the impression he worked for GIA but not about his status as clergy.

    My question still stands.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Schoenbergian,

    I hope I didn't imply that you should refrain from asking Fr. Krisman a question.
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,152
    @MarkS - I find the beaming listed as preferred to be harder to read. The 'incorrect' example is clearer to me (except for the one set that crosses the bar line - that should never be done.)
  • MarkS
    Posts: 282
    @bhcordova– we'll have to agree to disagree on that! I find the separate 8th notes-per syllable in the older editions of earlier music to be a nightmare to read, and the feeling seems to be shared by many of the singers I have worked with. One can easily find oneself in the middle of what would otherwise be a straightforward 4/4 bar with no idea what part of what beat one is on. When the beaming reinforces the meter, all goes much more smoothly!

    (edited because just came back from a long car trip to Glimmerglass Opera in Cooperstown NY —Janacek's Cunning Little Vixen, which is wonderful—and am having difficulty with basic English.)
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,152
    I've played lots of pieces that look similar to the 'incorrect' example. Never had a problem with the start of a phrase being on the up beat. But, then, I learned how to properly subdivide time as a beginning band student. Don't they teach that in choir?
  • MarkS
    Posts: 282
    Well, I didn't come up through the vocal ranks. Aside from early piano lessons, I also played clarinet from 3rd grade through HS, and was well schooled in subdividing from both experiences (Piano/conducting/composition at music school). And, actually, I exaggerated-I myself really don't have much problem reading these scores, although my experience is that many singers do, and that beaming which reinforces meter eliminates many reading problems. And my answer to your question is, well, no, I rather suspect many choral/vocal students aren't drilled much in subdivision (okay, I know many aren't, and to some it is wholly foreign!). But that, I think, helps make my point—most folks find metrical beaming easier to read—because, for instance, they don't have skills like subdividing.

    I repeat myself too much! Need a nap. Sorry!
  • MarkS
    Posts: 282
    I should add that I make sure my choristers are introduced to reading skills such as subdividing!
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,387
    Schönbergian, did either Hassler or Byrd switch back and forth between "e-le-i-son" and "e-lei-son" in one (or more) of their settings of the Kyrie? My issue is not the three or the four syllables, although the four-syllable "e-le-i-son" is more common. My issue is the switching back and forth between them, as you do in your setting. It's the inconsistency that provoked my comment. Had Byrd or Hassler done the same thing, I would have as well pointed out the inconsistency.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    Not only does Hassler switch between e-le-i-son and e-lei-son, he also switched between ky-ri-e and ky-rie.
    Thanked by 1Casavant Organist
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,148
    Victoria switches between e-le-i-son and e-lei-son in the following Masses:
    Missa Ave Maris Stella
    Missa Ave Regina Coelorum
    Missa De Beata Maria
    Missa Dum Complerentur
    Missa Laetatus Sum
    Miaa O Magnum Mysterium
    Missa Pro Victoria
    Missa Quarti Toni
    Officium Defunctorum
    Missa Simile Est Regnum Coelorum
    Missa Vidi Speciosam

    He switches between ky-ri-e and ky-rie in
    Missa Pro Victoria
    Missa Trahe Me Post Te

    And he mixes not eliding (ky - ri - e e - lei - son) and eliding (ky - ri - e=e - lei - son) in these Masses:
    Missa Vidi Speciosam
    Miaaa Surge Propera
    Missa Quarti Toni
    Missa Quam Puchri Sunt
    Requiem a 4 voces
    Officium Defunctorum
    Missa Gaudeamus
    Missa Dum Complerentur
    Missa De Beata Maria
    Missa Ave Regina Coelorum
    Missa Ave Maris Stella
    Missa Alma Redemptoris
    Missa Ave Regina Coelorum

    Thanked by 4M. Jackson Osborn Schönbergian Casavant Organist Richard Mix
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,365
    But professor Jenkins! Bach used parallel fifths!

    I always though that e - le - ee- son, as opposed to e-lay-son, sounded back woodsish and non-euphonious. However, it is to be found in the best of masses by the best composers.

    Then, there is that Lutheran category of chorales called leisen, or leysen, because each stanza concludes with the refrain: e-lei-(or ley)-son. In German lands the -lei- syllable would, of course, be pronounced Iie, as in 'I need to lie down'.
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,152
    @MarkS - Thanks for the clarification. It seems we are closer to agreement than either thought at the beginning of this conversation. I just think that teaching how to subdivide time would be one of those foundational things that any musically trained person should be proficient at.
    Thanked by 1MarkS
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