How come no Glory Be at the end of psalms?
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,473
    I wonder what happened to the Glory be that used to be required at the end of all psalmody.
    If you look at the early attempts for the Responsorial Psalm, (like the early gelenau) the Glory be was included. At some point we stopped this practice...why? Was there permission ever given for this?
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,409
    It varies, I think. In the Office psalms always end with a doxology. Both Graduals indicate it for Entrance* and Communion, but are silent about it for Gradual/Responsorial Psalm, and for Offertory. *in GR can be omitted if singing it would delay the action of the Mass. AFAIK it has never appeared at the Responsorial psalm in Missal or Lectionary.
    Gelineau started his psalm project in 1953, and the Grail psalms are copyright 1963, so both precede any SC changes.
    GS is fairly clear that for Entrance you can make any selection from the verses listed (provided it is coherent) and then end with Gloria ... .
  • ClemensRomanusClemensRomanus
    Posts: 1,023
    Historically the Gloria Patri was not said during the inter-lection chants.
  • There appears, historically, to have been a lot a of variation in how responsorial singing was handled, in general. This variation includes the inclusion or omission or half-omission ('half-doxology') of the Gloria Patri. Variation is especially wide in the Divine Office but I believe has, historically, extended to the mass propers as well.

    I hasten to add that I don't know anything about the history of the modern Responsorial Psalm specifically, however.

    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,225
    The EF does not use a Gloria Patri after the Communion antiphon. Further, in my GR (OF edition/Solesmes) there is no indication for Gloria Patri as part of the Communio.

  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,409
    dad29, no not clearly, but it is implied by GR Praenotanda #17
    ... Cantus autem eodem modo peragitur ac cantus ad introitum, ...
    Which is same text as Ordo cantus Missae #17 DOL 535 says published 1972, promulgated 1974 ??
  • CatherineS
    Posts: 690
    When we sing the (EF) Communion antiphon AND follow it with psalm verses (2-5 verses depending on how long the line is), we return to the antiphon after each verse, and then after the final verse we sing the Gloria Patri, and then the antiphon one last time. For all I know the schola director invented this, but he's rather a stickler for "doing things right" so he probably is following some rubric from somewhere.

  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,409
    De Ritibus Servandis in Cantu Missae (1961)
    IX. After the Communion of the priest, the full choir sings the Antiphon which is thus named, the Intonation being sung by one, two or four cantors as in the case of the Introit. When there are other communicants, the Antiphon is begun when
    the priest distributes Communion. If the Antiphon is taken from a Psalm, other Verses of the same Psalm may be sung. In that case the Antiphon may be repeated after every Verse or two Verses; and when the Communion is ended, Gloria Patri followed by the Antiphon is sung. ...
  • ClemensRomanusClemensRomanus
    Posts: 1,023
    Michael, thanks! I knew of variation in practice but wasn’t aware of it extending to the Gradual.
  • I do not pretend to be speaking definitively, but I was once told that Gloria Patri was not said with psalms within the mass, only the office. Clearly, the Introit, in the form in which it lingers yet, is a disputation of this. Too, it seems to be current practice to sing Glory be... after psalms during the Communions.
  • Jackson,

    You raise a good question: is the Gloria Patri sung with the Introit in the modern rite of Paul VI?
  • Chris -

    It would seem to me that The Introit, including, as it does, an antiphon and a verse with its Gloria Patri, would be sung entire whenever it is sung. The GIRM, after all, does call for the propers as they appear in the GR. This would mean that the Antiphon with its verse and Glory be..., as they appear in the GR, are expected to be sung at the Novus Ordo.

    It is my opinion (and only my opinion!) that if omitting the verse and Glory be... and singing only the antiphon would get The Introit 'in the door' where 'time' or other such excuses are unduly significant factors, then one might consider doing this.
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  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,409
    I found the document on the CMAA website. I deduce that if only the antiphon is sung then that is that, but if psalm verses are added then the Gloria Patri ends them. Note that this also applies to the Offertory. The logic, as I understand it, is that if the chant functions as a processional, it has the verses, and singing continues for as long as needed to accompany the procession. Of course, if only the celebrant communicates there is no procession, and a similar logic applies at the Offertory. I would argue this logic applies to both EF and OF, and that in the OF if you sing something else to accompany the entrance procession then it would be legitimate to chant just the Entrance Antiphon.
  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 978
    When the Gloria Patri can be added to the Entrance Chant or Communion Chant is explained in the Introduction to the Ordo Cantus Missae:

    In this manner, the alternation of the antiphon and verses can be as long as is necessary to accompany the procession. However, before the antiphon is repeated at the end, Gloria Patri, Sicut erat, can be sung as a final verse, in the same manner as one of the verses already sung. If the Gloria Patri has a particular melodic ending, that same ending is to be used in all the verses.

    If it happens that the chant, without the verse Gloria Patri and the repetition of the antiphon, becomes too protracted, the doxology is omitted. If the procession is shorter, only one verse of the psalm is used, or even the antiphon alone, with no verses added. (no. 1)

    When the priest receives the Body of the Lord, the Communion antiphon is begun. The chant is carried out in the same manner as the Introit chant, and in such a way the cantors also may receive the sacrament. (no. 17)

    No Gloria Patri is added tot the Gradual, Alleluia or Offertory Chant, because of their responsorial character.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,409
    De Ritibus Servandis in Cantu Missae (1961) VI
    ... When the Offertory is over, the Psalm ends with Gloria Patri, and the Antiphon is repeated. ...
    Confusing, I find, and not what I had previously understood. Is it sung for EF per this 1961 instruction, and not for OF (OCM88) ?!
    I appreciate the logic of the responsorial character.
    Does any text actually say DON'T, or is it just a failure to say DO ?
  • I believe I've seen it claimed that the Gloria Patri was introduced as the final verse of every psalm in antiphonal singing of the psalms as introduced by Ignatius of Antioch.

    It took its present form in response to Arianism -- apparently the Arians preferred (for obvious reasons) a version that used 'per' instead of 'et' after 'Patri'.

    For reasons that I do not understand (but maybe someone here does?) as the various chants associated with various parts of the mass evolved, verses were dropped, especially from graduals, alleluias, and offertories. I do not believe (but am certainly prepared to be corrected) that this evolution had anything to do with their being 'responsory' in character -- indeed, in some cases the loss of verses seems to occur in parallel with the loss of the responsory character of the chant.

    I can appreciate why the Introit and Communion chants would have verses and why -- as has been the custom for many centuries -- one would use more or fewer of those verses as needed in the moment. (There are references in even pre-Trent missals of the priest giving a signal to the choir to skip to the Gloria Patri in the Introit.) But the Offertory is also an accompaniment to a procession, and yet it appears that the verses disappeared from it rather early. I wonder why?

    Maybe somebody who knows about the history of the liturgy can chime in.

    In some versions of the Divine Office, there is responsorial singing that includes the Gloria Patri. The practice appears to be quite ancient. For example, Amalarius' De Ordine Antiphonarii (9th century) describes the use of the Gloria Patri in responsorial singing in the Roman Office. But clearly there was great variation in practice -- in fact, Amalarius begins his Antiphonary by mentioning the recent discovery of many antiphonaries in the library of Corbie, and the fact that they all disagree with one another.
  • @a_f_hawkins

    1962 Liber also explicitly gives the option of the Gloria Patri in the offertory.

    VI. The Offertory is begun by one, two or four cantors, in the same way as the Introit, and is finished by the full choir.

    After the Offertory Antiphon the choir may sing to the ancient Gregorian chants those Verses which it was once customary to sing at this place.

    If the Offertory Antiphon is taken from a Psalm, other Verses of the same Psalm may be sung. In that case the Antiphon may be repeated after every Verse or two Verses. When the Offertory is over, the Psalm ends with Gloria Patri, and the Antiphon is repeated.

    It does not mention the use of the Gloria Patri in the Gradual, nor in the Alleluia (and in the latter case at least would make very little sense to my mind, though I cannot think of a good reason to support that feeling other than "it should end with the word Alleluia").

    The GIRM just says that the offertory is sung in the same manner as the Introit, and refers to the relevant passages there, which do not mention the Gloria Patri but just point to the GR.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    Introit and Communion final verses are Gloria Patri at Mass.

    Psalmody in the office ends with a Gloria Patri before the antiphon is repeated.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,225
    If the Antiphon is taken from a Psalm, other Verses of the same Psalm may be sung. In that case the Antiphon may be repeated after every Verse or two Verses; and when the Communion is ended, Gloria Patri followed by the Antiphon is sung. ...

    ...but if antiphon only (very common), then no Gloria Patri.

    Interesting note of yours on the GP at Communion in the OF. That is not mentioned in the MR ('02) at Bibliaclerus. Maybe another "whatever" thing from Solesmes?
  • mahrt
    Posts: 517
    Historically, the offertory is a responsory, not an antiphon, since its verses are melismatic, not psalmodic, for which no Gloria Patri is foreseen. That old hand-missals and even the 1962 Liber refer to the offertory as an antiphon is only evidence that the priority of the traditional chant has been obscured.
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