I will go first ..

SC # 22.3

(obviously my favorite because of the number of times pasted into the forum)

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"The hour of Prime is to be suppressed."
— SC 89d
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Finally there must be no innovation unless the good of the Church.......

Interesting observation. "...from the moment that heresy enters therein, the Angel who oversees them departs - according to the voice of Basil the Great - and that temple becomes an ordinary house." Wonder how many "ordinary houses" we have worshiped in, if the good saint is reliable.

The 'one and merciful God' whom Abraham worshipped, IS the One God we Christians worship. That Muslims fail to understand that God is One-in-Three and Three-in-One does not mean they are worshipping a different God, there is only ONE. Abraham may indeed have met the Trinity (Gen 18:1 ff), but without getting any developed theological understanding.

I am convinced Islam has no connection to Abraham, since its founder was not born until the 6th century. A little late for hobnobbing with Abraham and discussing theology with him. Islam was made up by its founder during a time when anti-Trinitarian heresies raged in eastern Christianity.

For the record, I don't believe in revelations by golden tablets or in angel panties, either.

The truth is that only in the mystery of the incarnate Word does the mystery of man take on light. For Adam, the first man, was a figure of Him Who was to come,(20) namely Christ the Lord. Christ, the final Adam, by the revelation of the mystery of the Father and His love, fully reveals man to man himself and makes his supreme calling clear. It is not surprising, then, that in Him all the aforementioned truths find their root and attain their crown.

He Who is "the image of the invisible God" (Col. 1:15),(21) is Himself the perfect man. To the sons of Adam He restores the divine likeness which had been disfigured from the first sin onward. Since human nature as He assumed it was not annulled,(22) by that very fact it has been raised up to a divine dignity in our respect too. For by His incarnation the Son of God has united Himself in some fashion with every man. He worked with human hands, He thought with a human mind, acted by human choice(23) and loved with a human heart. Born of the Virgin Mary, He has truly been made one of us, like us in all things except sin.(24)

As an innocent lamb He merited for us life by the free shedding of His own blood. In Him God reconciled us(25) to Himself and among ourselves; from bondage to the devil and sin He delivered us, so that each one of us can say with the Apostle: The Son of God "loved me and gave Himself up for me" (Gal. 2:20). By suffering for us He not only provided us with an example for our imitation,(26) He blazed a trail, and if we follow it, life and death are made holy and take on a new meaning.

The Christian man, conformed to the likeness of that Son Who is the firstborn of many brothers,(27) received "the first-fruits of the Spirit" (Rom. 8:23) by which he becomes capable of discharging the new law of love.(28) Through this Spirit, who is "the pledge of our inheritance" (Eph. 1:14), the whole man is renewed from within, even to the achievement of "the redemption of the body" (Rom. 8:23): "If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the death dwells in you, then he who raised Jesus Christ from the dead will also bring to life your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who dwells in you" (Rom. 8:11).(29) Pressing upon the Christian to be sure, are the need and the duty to battle against evil through manifold tribulations and even to suffer death. But, linked with the paschal mystery and patterned on the dying Christ, he will hasten forward to resurrection in the strength which comes from hope.(30)

All this holds true not only for Christians, but for all men of good will in whose hearts grace works in an unseen way.(31) For, since Christ died for all men,(32) and since the ultimate vocation of man is in fact one, and divine, we ought to believe that the Holy Spirit in a manner known only to God offers to every man the possibility of being associated with this paschal mystery.

Such is the mystery of man, and it is a great one, as seen by believers in the light of Christian revelation. Through Christ and in Christ, the riddles of sorrow and death grow meaningful. Apart from His Gospel, they overwhelm us. Christ has risen, destroying death by His death; He has lavished life upon us(33) so that, as sons in the Son, we can cry out in the Spirit; Abba, Father(34)

GS 22

I am not what some hastily label an 'Islamophobe'. Islam has and has had its share of incredibly devout, holy, and loving followers; and its share (it perhaps seems at times to have more than its share) of pitifully hateful and murderous perverts. Of these latter, our own Christianity has had its historical share, a share which doesn't happen to be on the front pages at the present time. Both of us have had our share of 'crusades' in which converts were won by the sword rather than by evangelistic ardour - that 'love of God which passeth all understanding'.

Still, it cannot by any stretch of the imagination be said that Muslims worship the same God as do Christians and Jews. They reject the Trinitarian nature of God and the divinity and Godhead of Jesus of Nazareth. Since these are attributes of the One True and Living God, a 'god' which has not these attributes is ipso facto not the same as that worshiped by Christians. Further, we, by our Faith, would be compelled to conclude that such a 'god', not being the One Triune God, does not nor cannot exist. Then there is their concept of heaven: it seems to be less the gift of a perfect and loving union with God in his heavenly kingdom, the triumphant Communion of Saints, than to be waited on for all eternity by scores of virgins. How utterly childish and remarkably immature - and non-Christian.

Their concept of heaven seems to be less the gift of a perfect and loving union with God in his heavenly kingdom, the triumphant Communion of Saints, than to be waited on for all eternity by scores of virgins.

Their heaven is more a form of an earthly paradise. The old joke, tired but still a bit funny in a way. The Koran supposedly promised 70 virgins to martyrs. Some wag said that a newer and more accurate translation promised martyrs for Islam a 70-year-old virgin. Different perspective, to be sure.

Were we really trying to establish that Muslims are neither Jews nor Christians?

I think we were establishing the view held by the Church for centuries, that we don't worship the same God. This despite what some more politically correct recent popes have maintained.

I agree on the Christian heresy part. It was another anti-trinitarian heresy common at the time, especially in the east. However, the contemporary Muslims I have talked with vehemently deny this.

So the ancient people (basically everyone) whose physics was based on four Elements actually walked on a different Earth and breathed different Air, because they were wrong? And saw different stars because they believed them only small and nearby?

And the moderns who disbelieve in evolution and hold to a young earth, actually see different gorillas from the majority who believe?

There is One God and only One: this is a philosophical fact. No matter how wrong a man is in what he believes about God's nature, God remains God. No matter if a man's worship of God actually does God no honour : still God remains God.

"I, for one, don't plan to be judged by the god of the [N],"

Except that's not quite the same thing. It's not a formula where the syntax doesn't matter.

Because it's not two Gods...one God. Again, confusion of formula and syntax. Reminds me of CS Lewis about how errors travel in pairs, so that in our eagerness to flee the embrace of one we risk rushing to embrace the other.

As my Coptic friend from Egypt says, "There is nothing good about Islam." He has experienced the dark side of Islam, to be sure. Thankfully, I have not.

professing to hold the faith of Abraham != actually holding the faith of Abraham

St. Thomas (II-II:11:1) defines heresy: "a species of infidelity in men who, having professed the faith of Christ, corrupt its dogmas. [...] There are, therefore, two ways of deviating from Christianity: the one by refusing to believe in Christ Himself, which is the way of infidelity, common to Pagans and Jews..."

And to Moslems. To be heretics, they would have to first profess the faith of Christ (which they haven't).
It seems that after V II there is a big desire to say that every human being is in the Church, baptized or not, Trinitarian or not, etc. Doesn't work.

We disagree about who that God is: the first person of the Trinity, or the one who spoke to Muhammad, but that does not change the one we both are referencing.

But it is not the first person of the Trinity who will judge mankind at the last day, but rather the second, Jesus Christ, the God-Man who died for our sins and rose again. This is His own teaching as recorded in the Gospel and the faith professed by the Church. Clearly, those of other religions are not referring to the same divine judge in their doctrines and worship!

how does LG 16 square with St Cyprian, who was a Doctor of the Church?
"No one can have God for his Father, who does not have the Church for his mother."

And even if there are many well meaning protestants or even pagans who strive to live for God according to the light they have... how does LG16 square with people who strap explosives on their children and send them through tunnels to kill Israelis? Is this a dictate of conscience, moved by grace? I wonder.
"The time is coming when everyone who kills you will think he is doing a service to God."

Many many years ago (sometime in my twenties) I was touring the Indian mound culture's remains as I drove along the Mississippi. I had climbed to the top of a very large mound, which must have seemed right next to heaven by its builders, and as I viewed all the Indians going about their daily lives down below and thought of the priests and elites who would have been standing next to me at the apex I began to cry - profusely. My tears were on behalf of the ancient people who inhabited these mound cities - on behalf of them because they did not know Jesus or the Christian religion, had no faith or sacraments, no Church, and would not have had a chance at salvation. It all seemed unfair and cruel. They were, after all, real people, many of whom likely had good hearts, consciences, and love. Salvation was/is the reward of faith in our Lord, a goodly and righteous life, participation in the sacramental life of the Church, and so forth, and love.

When I returned to Houston and visited my good priest friend (who would one day become the first pastor of Walsingham), I told him of my experience. He calmly explained that all men will meet Jesus, God the Son, when they die and it is he who will judge them according to what is in their hearts. This brought me great relief and is, I think, a far more loving act by the God of Love, who forgives sin, who forgives our shortcomings.

There are still those who think that 'outside the Church there is no salvation'. I think them to be mightily proudful, presumptuosly cock-sure, treading perilously on spiritual egg-shells, and horribly judgmental to the point of trespassing on that judgement which is God's alone. Holy writ tells us that God is love, and that he and she who have not love do not know God - ipso facto don't. We more wisely pray earnestly and with great love for those outside the Church. We unwisely and at the peril of our own souls think that they are or will be consigned to those infernal regions which we should neither wish nor dare to presume upon any one.

Thank you, MJO! I have been reading all these posts and feeling anxious over many of them and my gut reaction was definitely dismay at some of what others wrote. I think what you write is very wise. Praying for those outside the Church is certainly what the Church models for us, especially in the Good Friday Liturgy when we recall the Passion and Death of Our Lord who died for us all.

Furthermore, the Church condemned as errors the following propositions, quoted in the Syllabus:

16. Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation. — Encyclical “Qui pluribus,” Nov. 9, 1846.

17. Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ. — Encyclical “Quanto conficiamur,” Aug. 10, 1863

One other consideration... often, one of the arguments I hear against EENS is that "God is a God of Love"... but the same God of infinite love and mercy is simultaneously balanced by His infinite justice. If there is error of focusing solely on one side of the equation there is just as much error on focusing solely on the other side of the equation... if there is error in emphasizing the justice ONLY of God, there is as much error in emphasizing His love and mercy ONLY.

The God of the Old Testament is the same God of the New - He is incapable of change. The message of the OT was that of justice, that of the NT one of mercy / love - but God is the same God across both testaments.

The God who takes mercy on the Jews and leads them out of Egypt is the same God who will not allow Moses to enter the Promised Land simply for his moment of doubt in bringing forth water from the rock. The same God who sends poisonous serpents among the Jews in punishment for their murmuring is the one who instructs Moses to construct the bronze serpent on the cross that restores them to health - if they will look upon it.

In the NT, the same Jesus Who on the one hand works many miracles of mercy is the very Same Who drives the money-changers from the temple, whipping them in His just anger. The same Jesus Who forgives sinners so frequently also tells the apostles that those who do not receive the preaching of the Word "...it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city".

In both testaments, we see sinners who receive great mercy and sinners who are struck dead for their sin.

Love, mercy, AND justice.