The rampant political correctness long ago surpassed ridiculous. I don't put up with it anymore when I encounter it. I have been called:

Homophobe - No, I don't fear humans at all and am, in fact, not really afraid of anything or anyone.

Racist - No, I hate everyone equally so no one is singled out.

Traditionalist - Yep, there was an abundance of talent in earlier times that doesn't exist today meaning many contemporary efforts should be recognized for the garbage they are.

Insensitive - You're right. I don't give a d**n about your little feelings. Grow up!

Diversity - That smacks of quotas. How about true equality for a change?

Go to your safe space and color.

There's a new color, Bluetiful which replaced Dandelion. So yes, definitely the 64 colors.

I'm sure you express yourself quite creatively. ;-)

What is he “the enemy” of?

The TLM.

Goodness—such emotion drawn out by Fr. Anthony...

I took a fabulous class on chant with him a number of years ago (16 hours over 2 weekends, so a bit more time than the average NPM workshop—it was excellent), and I know him to very much be a proponent of maintaining the musical legacy and heritage of the church. Chant was prominently used in a liturgy I attended at Collegeville. He also was the one brought in to my diocese to prepare the priests and musicians for the chants of the new missal—another excellent presentation, and he convinced a number of priests to chant parts of (or all of) the mass that they would have never considered doing before. He made a particular impact on my rector. We entered the new translation with even the Eucharistic Prayer being chanted at every weekend mass.

I agree with Kenneth's assertion wholeheartedly.

Marc

he's not exactly a friend of traditionalists

He's a friend of many traditionalists. He's just not a fan of traditionalism.

You picked parts that are not an apples-to-apples comparison. In the first, he described pre-conciliar practice. In the second, he is speaking specifically to the modern swell of support for the EF, and what he says makes perfect sense. My parish has the only EF masses in about a 2 hour radius (at least). If you're driving 2 hours to attend the EF, of course you're not going to leave early. He discussed this all in more detail—the intentional nature of modern EF attendance. You're not there because it's the only choice—you've made an intentional choice to attend that instead of the multitude of OF options available to you.

You are always welcome to disagree with him, but it's not fair to take what he said out of context (or anyone, for that matter).

Marc

I'm only saying that the quotations have to be read in the context they were offered. In this case, he was talking about two entirely different time periods in the church, and they were not offered together. I firmly stand by my comment that it is not fair to take individual sentences out of their original context, and then offer them as a direct comparison.

Your experiences with intentionality may well be different than mine, but my experience is that for those that have to work harder to access something like the EF, it is going to be more important to them. Even if it is a local option, it is not the default, it is "extra"-ordinary—literally out of the ordinary. They're not the average church-goers who attend the nearest parish to check it off the list. I can make the same point about participation in masses such as the Chrism Mass each year at the cathedral I served (or Rite of Election, or Ordinations)—those that are there really want to be there. The level of singing and engagement is completely opposite the average parish experience in that diocese. I was blown away when I first experienced it, but on reflection it made perfect sense.

Marc

@Dixit .. you could not be more off base if you tried.

1) taking a persons comments out of context and using them to create a story that supports your biased opinion is exactly what the media does and is not fair at all to the person being quoted

2) Marc’s point, I think, is that most people who attend the OF don’t even know what the EF is. (And their priests don’t want them to know) Most people who attend the EF are more educated in and serious about the faith. I realize this is a broad generalization and not 100% true - there will always be a number of serious OF attending Catholics that may not know about or have access to the EF - but in more cases than not this is the way it goes. It’s unfortunate. It might not be this way where you are from. You might be lucky. But it’s not such a “black and white” issue as you make it out to be. There are gray areas. Gray areas make the world go round.

After reading and re-reading I’m starting to see more and more your point here as well.

But I still stand by what Marc says with regards to the statements referencing two completely different time periods. He is right. But this has nothing to do with the fact that these are still two contradictory opinions from the same guy.

I am sure there will be further discussion on this but I wanted to say thanks for making me really think about all of the sides of this issue. I try to always be open and consider all sides before forming my own opinion but I admit this is difficult in practice. So thanks again.

Settefrati93—I'm happy to hear that there's the possibility that I'm not crazy. Much appreciated!

Dixit—I have to wonder if we might live in very different parts of the country, as your experiences with Catholics differ tremendously from my own. Settefrati93's point #2 above sums up my experience perfectly.

Marc

I don't get involved in these discussions anymore. I now remember why.

As regards the Magisterium, I know of no point on which Fr. Ruff dissents from Church teaching. Specifically, I am quite sure he agrees that Vatican II was not a great rupture but part of a continuity of Church practice, as Benedict taught explicitly. Where he disagrees is with a prudential consideration on the part of Benedict that allowing the EF everywhere would calm the waters. While I agree with Benedict's action, I am afraid it has had no such result.

Fr. Ruff clearly believes everyone should use the same Mass, and here he disagrees with Benedict but agrees with many Traditionalists. It's just which Mass...

But there is no dissent from Church teaching in that disagreement with pastoral practice.

Please remember that both St. John Paul II and Benedict thoroughly supported the new Mass and the use of the vernacular. Joseph Ratzinger explicitly said (when Prefect) that having a variety of Eucharistic prayers was a good thing. He believes that the imposition of the Novus Ordo without preparation was unwise and led to many problems, and he said so many times. But he also said that the appearance of finality and uniformity given by Trent was something of an error as well. (In his notes on the Council, written as a young peritus. He does not seem to have changed that opinion that I ever saw, but would be perfectly happy if someone corrected me on that.) Summorum Pontificum was an attempt to foster peace, not a sly message that "I really think Vatican II was all wrong."

The only quote trotted out to make him seem a Restorationist "in pectore" has to do with the banal language of some particular prayers, not the overall Mass of the Bl. Paul VI itself.

Again we run into this thing that if one feels uncomfortable with the iron grip of Spring Granola-Tofu on the Cassio, her long crinkly salt-and-pepper hippie 'do floating exultantly as she leads the parish for the fiftieth year in the same "new" worship music, then one MUST obviously support the restoration of the Latin Mass. Those two things bear no relation to each other whatsoever.

Kenneth

Kenneth, your perception may be correct (or not) but what we were discussing here was Fr Ruff’s assertion that the TLM “inevitably” leads Catholics to leave Mass early .... and the proof given is that EF Catholics never leave Mass early.

As they say where I’m from: “go figure!”

I can't help but wonder if the discourse would be so negative if we all posted without the veil of anonymity.

Marc

Actually, it started with the lectionary, but I see dear Fr. Ruff throws in a lot more than perhaps is prudent. I realized when I added my observation about WHERE the EF is popular I was myself digressing, and I apologize.

Kenneth

I haven't even seen anyone leave in the OF unless it was people I knew had to leave to go to work. I can even play a verse of the recessional hymn AFTER the priest has left and the congregation stays to sing. Bad congregational behavior exists somewhere, I am sure, but I think it is often exaggerated.

Now that we have deacons in the parish - something our former pastor wouldn't allow - we no longer have those extraordinary ministers.

madorganist,

Your experience seems incompatible with the statement by Fr. Ruff:

Leaving Communion fits quite well with a “sacred” and “reverent” liturgy conducted in Latin. Centuries of history suggests that there is even a sort of inevitability about the liturgical culture and the resulting lay practice.

“Realize that those choosing the Extraordinary Form of the Mass are doing so by choice…”

Absolutely; but everyone who attends the OF also does this by choice.

Nobody is forced to go to Mass, except small children (by their parents).

100+ years ago, when Communion after Mass was the norm, I wonder how many left Mass early?

Since almost no one received communion, I suspect that was not much of an incentive to stay.

There are plenty of accounts from the middle ages of people coming and going throughout the Mass. This is still the case in latin countries and among many of our Eastern brethren. I'm not sure what the big deal is, unless one is an Anglo-Saxon rule-following type.

Scripsit CharlesW:

I haven't even seen anyone leave in the OF unless it was people I knew had to leave to go to work.

Oh, I know some people who leave directly after Communion with no work or health-related reason. They probably have been doing it their whole lives. When my late mother was becoming a Catholic, one of her neighbors brought her to Mass weekly and left after Communion, leading my mother to think that it was normal. One week, when I took her to Mass, the change surprised her.

I wonder if it may have been related to an old practice in which Communion was distributed to the faithful after Mass.

leaving after Communion is entirely compatible with a deeply “traditional” Catholic piety and understanding of priesthood, sacrifice, and real presence. Leaving Communion fits quite well with a “sacred” and “reverent” liturgy conducted in Latin.

--Fr Ruff quote

Apparently Fr Ruff does not get out much. I've attended OF Masses since they were invented, and there are--consistently--a bunch of people who take a powder after Communion. Some leave just before their pew empties for Communion, too.

So it seems that leaving after Communion is entirely compatible with a deeply "modern" Catholic piety and understanding, etc., blahblahblah....

unless one is an Anglo-Saxon rule-following type.

You have a problem with that?

those choosing the Extraordinary Form of the Mass ... are nostalgic for a fictional simpler time

I'm sure that may be true in a few cases. I don't think it is true in many, at least from my observation and interaction with EF attendees over more years than I care to admit. I was nine when my parents re-discovered the Latin Mass. Nostalgia might have explained their first visit. But if it was simply "nostalgia", it would have been short-lived... as attending the Latin Mass took some considerable effort on their part. The closest TLM at that time was five hours away. We left at 3:30 AM to be there in time for confession before Mass. We attended weekly for about 6 months until we discovered other Masses that were only 90 minutes away.

My parents made their decision because of the conviction that there was something fundamentally different between the OF and EF forms of worship... something I've heard numerous others mention when asked about their reasons for attending the Latin Mass.

Using "nostalgia" to explain that people attend the EF is rather like assuming that those who attend the OF are "intellectually lazy" or "aren't committed" to their Faith.

I think we can do better on both sides of the issue.

neither the B minor mass nor the Missa solemnis suddenly came into use during his tenure.

No, because no responsible Catholic church musician would use either of those for the Mass. But you know that.