Kyriale Triplex?
  • bgeorge77
    Posts: 190
    1. Do St Gall/Laon neumes exist for the ordinaries of the Mass?

    2. Where might I see and study them?

    3. I read once that the ordinaries listed in the Graduale are only a small part of a much larger repertory. Does anyone know the history of how the Graduale came to pick those particular ordinary parts, and arrange them into the 18 Masses? What happened to the other ordinaries? Are they still in print?
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  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    There's another thread about the ordering in the current Graduale. But here are the relevant manuscript libraries:

    St. Gall

    Laon
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  • madorganist
    Posts: 906
    This thread may be seven years old, but it's worth revisiting. The attached image is from p. 14 of Edward Schaefer's edition of Dom Saulnier's Gregorian Chant: A Guide. The caption simply reads
    Comparative table (Solesmes, atelier de Paléographie musicale)
    Are such comparative tables available for the whole Kyriale? If so, where can they be found? Why were the adiastematic neumes not included in the Triplex or Novum?

    image
    Kyrie 4.jpg
    1026 x 1263 - 70K
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  • MichaelDickson
    Posts: 419
    Do the manuscripts (Laon and St. Gall, and Einsedeln? maybe others) used for the adiastematic neumes contain the ordinaries? I seem to remember that St. Gall 359 (at least) is described as containing only propers. I've only ever glanced at the actual manuscript (online). In any case, I'm pretty sure (but do not have the book with me) that the Introduction to the Novum states that the ordinaries were simply taken from the 1908 Graduale Romanum.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,369
    Maybe they do not contain ordinaries, but there are tropes to the same tunes. As far as I can make out the first line of adiastematic neumes is taken from from St Gall 378, but the copy is not quite clear enough to see the reference. It seems to say ' ... Troper p.237 S G 378 (p 305)' . If so, I can't find it in SG 378 (yet).
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  • MichaelDickson
    Posts: 419
    You're right. In fact 378 does contain ordinaries. Look starting p. 362.

    So yeah, it is a bit mysterious why they aren't in the Novum. I just always assumed that they were in manuscripts that were not used to produce it (rather, 'not in the manuscripts used to produce it'). Weird.

    (EDIT: and I think what you read as p. 305 is p. 365)
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  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,703
    The 1903 books had an earlier phase of the evolution of the chant Ordinaries,

    The Manual of Gregorian Chant, No. 581 is well worth looking at, It has only 16 Masses and 4 Creeds.

    https://archive.org/details/manualofgregoria00dela

    The Sarum Kyriale is here beautifully re-typeset,

    https://macsphere.mcmaster.ca/bitstream/11375/16331/6/SM-kyriale.pdf
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  • MichaelDickson
    Posts: 419
    Reunited with my copy of the Novum, it appears that 378 was not used for that book. At any rate, the Preface mentions only 339, 359, 376, and 390/91 (among the St. Gall mss). (I haven't looked to see whether there are ordinaries in any of them, but given the presence of the ordinaries in 378, I find it odd regardless, that they appear without the adiastematic neumes in the Novum. Their presence is really the main reason for owning that book, is it not?)
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  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,703
    Another place to look is in the collection of Tropes of the Ordinaries, Vol. 47 of the Analecta Hymnica,
    https://archive.org/stream/analectahymnicam4647drev#page/n401/mode/2up

    Sadly we don't yet have an index of Graduale, but the Cantus database is going to include these in the future.
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  • MichaelDickson
    Posts: 419
    @tomjaw: That's an interesting resource. I'm not sure that I'd seen it before. My German is very sketchy (mainly good for ordering beer) but once it gets to the discussion of specific Kyrie chants, it looks like one can more or less read around it and get the gist.

    Great. Now I have another esoteric way to avoid work. Thanks?
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  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,703
    @MichaelDickson I too can order beer in German and French! My wife is Swiss German so I could ask her to translate... My German is patchy, I used to translate Chemistry papers into English... But Chant terminology is something I am still learning, I sometimes drop the text into google translate and it does a reasonable job.

    The Analecta Hymnica is a great way to pass the time (avoiding other work). Vol. 49 has the Tropes for the Propers!

    I know of no manuscript database of large numbers of Missale / Graduale, so our only option will be to go on to the various libraries of online manuscripts and pick the oldest and look manually.
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  • madorganist
    Posts: 906
    My understanding is that the dates in the Kyriale indicate the approximate date of the manuscripts from which they were taken, not the presumed date of composition. More than a handful of them are marked as X. century, which is before Guido invented the staff, so they must have been taken from adiastematic neuemes. Now where to find them...
  • Andris Amolins
    Posts: 152
    I always thought that the century indications show the date of the earliest manuscripts where the particular chant could be found. Not necessarily that it was used for editing the melody for the Vaticana.
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  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,369
    I have put together some notes on those Kyrie tropes found in SG 378, which show adiastematic neumes. I am not skilled enough to say whether these neumes correspond to the tunes in GR.
    kyrietropes.pdf
    18K
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  • madorganist
    Posts: 906
    Very helpful, a_f_hawkins!
  • madorganist
    Posts: 906
    Here's the Sanctus from Mass I on Wikipedia!
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/23/Sanctus_Sans_titre_13.JPG/600px-Sanctus_Sans_titre_13.JPG
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • madorganist
    Posts: 906
    Mass I with melodic restoration and St. Gall neumes is now available here and it looks like IV and XI are coming soon!
    Thanked by 2a_f_hawkins M. Jackson Osborn
  • madorganist
    Posts: 906
    The Gloria from Mass IV has now been posted:
    http://www.gregor-und-taube.de/Anhang/Ordinarium-4.pdf
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
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