Magnum Principium has been launched.
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Apparently, Catholic churches in New Zealand began introducing local adaptations to the OF liturgy in October: From CathNewsNew Zealand:

    This coming Sunday parishioners at Catholic churches in New Zealand will notice the Liturgy of the Word is a little different: the Gospel will be prayed using an ancient process called Lectio Divina (Holy Reading).

    “This Lectio Divina initiative is a way the Archdiocese is responding to the plea of Pope Francis to make the sacred Scriptures better known and more widely diffused.

    “He has reminded us that we can take creative initiatives in our parishes so that we can become ‘living vessels for the transmission of God’s word’. Lectio Divina is a wonderful way for us to become these living vessels,” Cardinal John Dew says.

    “There will be only one reading (the Gospel), which the lay reader will read.

    “The lay reader – called the Lectio Divina Leader – will also guide the congregation through the Lectio Divina process, which involves both listening to and reflecting on the Gospel.

    “The process is something all of us can do at home,” Cardinal John explains.

    “What will happen is the reader will invite the congregation to close their eyes and listen prayerfully while the Gospel (Matthew 22: 34-40 – which is about Our Lord’s greatest commandment) is being read. While they are listening, each person will be listening for a word, image or phrase that strikes them in some way.”

    After the Gospel has been read, there will be a 30-second period of silence.

    The Leader will then re-read the Gospel and again invite everybody to listen for the word, image or phrase that has occurred to them while they were listening.

    “The Leader will invite everyone to reflect on this word, image or phrase, giving it their full attention and letting it fill their minds without trying to analyse it.

    “The Leader will remind them they are in God’s presence, so all they need to do is let the Holy Spirit lead their understanding of what has been read.”

    Then there will be another short period of silence.

    The Leader will then give everyone time to think about what they want to say to God in response to the Gospel passage they’ve just heard. Some may want to praise God, others to thank Him, say sorry to Him or ask God for something for themselves or for someone else.

    “Just talk to God, silently in your hearts,” Cardinal John says.

    In the next stage, the Leader will ask everyone just to try to rest in God’s love.

    Another period of silence will follow – for 90 seconds or so.

    In the last part of the process the Leader will invite each person to recall the word, idea, image or phrase they first focused on and to think of something they could do during the next 24 hours to remind them of the idea that affected them in some way. There will be a 30-second period of silence to allow everyone the opportunity to do this.

    “The Leader will end the Lectio Divina process with a short prayer of thanksgiving,” Cardinal John says

  • Incardination
    Posts: 832
    Wow. Just... Wow.
  • RevAMG
    Posts: 162
    Oh dear.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,933
    I'm afraid those "living vessels for the transmission of God’s word" are more like cracked pots that leak.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,387
    The title of this discussion was created by JulieColl, and not by Cath News New Zealand. That agency reported on what was to happen in one diocese on one Sunday. (Please read the second paragraph of the news item, which refers to the "archdiocese" [of Wellington], not the entire country of New Zealand.) And there is no mention of "October" in the news item. (Conspiracy theorists need to embellish the facts.)

    The archbishop of Wellington was wanting to teach the people of the archdiocese about the laudatory spiritual practice of lectio divina, so that, perhaps, some of those same people might incorporate that into their daily prayer.

    What gall that the Cardinal Archbishop would use the Mass to try to teach something! Wow. Just... Wow. Oh dear.
    Thanked by 2Paul F. Ford PaxMelodious
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    How sweet of you to imply that I'm a conspiracy theorist, Father.

    The article is dated "October 26, 2017".

  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,933
    Lectio Divina can lead to greater understanding of scripture. Carried to an extreme it can reduce to formulas to produce mystical experiences. In that case it could lead to occult practices similar to those referenced in Deuteronomy 18: 9-11.

    How sweet of you to imply that I'm a conspiracy theorist, Father.


    I knew you were one of us. By the way, the Russians did it.

    Thanked by 2CCooze JulieColl
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    cracked pots


    Hey, punk! You were not referring to the Cardinal, were you? Well.....WERE YOU, punk??
  • rich_enough
    Posts: 1,031
    What gall that the Cardinal Archbishop would use the Mass to try to teach something! Wow. Just... Wow. Oh dear.

    The mass shouldn't be "used" at all.
    Thanked by 4CGM PaxTecum CharlesW Casavant Organist
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,387
    Indeed.
  • mmeladirectress
    Posts: 1,075
    Julie thanks for posting this.
    I looked over this article and found myself wondering whether, following all the closed eyes and moments of silence, etc., these churches still intend to have a sermon - an expounding of the text(s) read, in line with Church teaching and not personal interpretation {which could, after all, range from 'mysticism' to 'protestantism'}, - given by one who has been ordained to teach, as well as to sanctify, and rule ...
    Thanked by 4CharlesW eft94530 Incardination JulieColl
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,703
    This was my favourite,
    will invite each person to recall the word,

    I presume they are thinking of congregations that contain less than say 20 adults, I wonder what their average Mass attendance is? I sure they will have fewer people after this comes into effect, and the local TLM will be packed with people trying to avoid the circus!
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,157
    This innovation is not based on Magnum principium.

    Some people used to claim that the "spirit of Vatican II" justified various unauthorized actions; now, in effect, the Archbishop of Wellington is citing the spirit of Pope Francis as justification. But instead of following the Pope's principle of synodality -- which would require a consensus among the NZ bishops -- he seems to be acting unilaterally.

    If the Archbishop wants to introduce people to lectio divina (a laudable goal), there must be ways of doing that which don't involve suppressing Scripture readings.

    For instance, a meditative way of presenting a psalm text, which might be an element in one's lectio, would be to encourage the singing of a plainchant melismatic Gradual. He could certainly approve English and Maori versions for use in his diocese.

    Thanked by 3Vilyanor noel jones, aago Casavant Organist
  • Incardination
    Posts: 832
    MME, you have hit precisely the point. Why have a sermon - we are all apparently equivalent to priests anyway, capable of "offering" the sacrifice. Without our participation, does the consecration really happen? And if we are collaborative "priests" in a sense, why not devise our own sermon to ourselves? After all, it's all about how we understand sacred scripture that is important. I can almost understand now someone parsing what "is" is.

    Or... wow. Just... wow.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,933
    Hey, punk! You were not referring to the Cardinal, were you? Well.....WERE YOU, punk??


    If the pot fits, wear it - or smoke it, depending on how far west you are.
    Thanked by 1Cantus67
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,933
    And if we are collaborative "priests" in a sense, why not devise our own sermon to ourselves? After all, it's all about how we understand sacred scripture that is important. I can almost understand now someone parsing what "is" is.


    Clearly you haven't heard our sermons.
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,940
    I agree this has nothing to do with Magnum Principium.

    I don't understand the particular value of a lay person qua lay person leading this at that juncture of the Mass over that of someone with a faculty to homilize at that juncture of the Mass - the Archbishop offers no reason for that specific dimension as a relative value-add, as it were. Does he not trust his priests can do it? If not, would not the next step to have priests trained to do that - as part of a homiletic method after the proper proclamation of the Gospel?

    I would be quite miffed to find the other proper readings dispensed with (is NZ one of those odd jurisdictions - I believe Ireland at least used to be - where the episcopal conference got Vatican blessing to dispense with one of the two other readings?).

    More importantly, I would feel deprived of an direct low-mediated* proclamation of the undiluted Gospel - it's an encounter with the presence of Christ in the Mass and merits respect as such. If that's converted into an exercise of this type, it's instrumentalizing the Gospel in a way is in my view decidedly un-progressive.

    * It is still somewhat mediated by the fact that (i) it's a translation, for good or ill (or both), and (ii) the vagaries of the skill of proclamation of the priest. Spare me, however, in-passage digressions from the Gospel or attempts to interweave a homily with it. Your ideas, Reverend, are not the particular encounter that's supposed to be offered to the faithful in this particular moment - rather, you get that chance right after this moment. The proclamation of the Word may better be thought of an aural ikon, to mix dimensions: a liminal encounter. Please do not put yourself in the way.
    Thanked by 2chonak Vilyanor
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,369
    I take it the congregation remains seated, that could possibly by a reason for having a lay reader. It sounds as if this is intended to be one-off, I certainly hope so. But why not do it instead of the homily as a form of homily? After all the homily is supposed to encourage reflection on the readings. And I strongly object to the lay reader concluding with a prayer, that is definitely something that only a priest should do at Mass, even a deacon has no prayers to voice at Mass on behalf of the congregation.
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,916
    Here's a 'creative initiative' for them: tell them to do some lectio divina for Matthew 10:14. Then tell them your 'interpretation' of the verse leads you to the closest Latin Mass or Byzantine Liturgy of your choice, and that they can kiss your donation envelopes goodbye. Hagan lio, folks.
    Thanked by 2Vilyanor Casavant Organist
  • mmeladirectress
    Posts: 1,075
    >> Without our participation, does the consecration really happen?
    yes of course (I know that YOU know that).
    Hard to believe, but I have heard some 'progressives' hold that the silent, hidden Mass offered in a WWII prison camp by just one priest using his own poor chest as the altar, was not valid because no lay people were 'participating'.
    Wow is right.
  • Incardination
    Posts: 832
    Exactly (sorry if my irony was lost on others!). I've heard people (including priests) opine that private Masses celebrated by priest alone are not part of the worship of the Church for just that reason - that the "community" was not participating.
  • mmeladirectress
    Posts: 1,075
    'participating' takes a myriad of forms, especially in light of the teaching about the Mystical Body.

    Specifiying a lay reader etc as above - feels like a real throwback to the old Renew days.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    Mme: what it really is is flat-out disobedience to liturgical law.

    No "feelings" at all, just sin.

    Some clerics on this forum might attempt, dripping with condescension, to skirt the issue, but I see the spade, call it that, and will be happy to raise the bet.
  • mmeladirectress
    Posts: 1,075
    Dad29 I was meaning to say that this seems to head us back to that era, one more time, when we have struggled so long to get clear of it. Maybe this most recent directive, being regional, will not spread - something to pray for.
    Thanked by 2Vilyanor CHGiffen
  • VilyanorVilyanor
    Posts: 388
    I agree this is terrible and stupid, and that it does not seem to be at all in line with the kind of collegiality envisioned by Magnum Principium.

    Perhaps a better title would be "Magnum Principium has already exploded in the atmosphere".
    Thanked by 3dad29 JulieColl StimsonInRehab
  • Maureen
    Posts: 674
    This seems like another example of "Sunday Mass as kitchen sink."

    Everything is shoved into Sunday Mass - not before Mass, not after Mass, not on a different weekday, and not as a class or presentation. Nooo, everything has to be shoved at the captive congregation... until they get sick of it and stop coming on Sunday. And never mind what God thinks about His worship being interrupted and messed with.

    Lectio Divina is an ancient practice -- but not during Mass!

    Lectio Divina is done by individuals, on their own time. It is not led, it is not stuffed down people's throats.

    The Gospel at Mass is supposed to be read by a bishop, priest, or deacon! Nobody else!

    We should pray for the faithful of this archdiocese. They are being treated badly by their bishop.
    Thanked by 10chonak a_f_hawkins dad29 JulieColl CHGiffen CCooze mmeladirectress Vilyanor francis hilluminar
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    Mme: you are a gentle soul. Keep that quality!
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • mmeladirectress
    Posts: 1,075
    Dad 29 - thanks, but remind me to give you my DH's phone number, lol
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,916
    Magnum Principium has been launched.

    Archbishop Lefebvre: Somebody set up us the [liturgical] bomb.

    Pope Francis    : All your masses are belong to us.

    FIRE ZEH MISSALS!
    Thanked by 2Vilyanor eft94530
  • Priestboi
    Posts: 155
    So how can MP be used for good? - *runs for cover!

    Seriously though...
  • Casavant Organist
    Posts: 800
    In Toronto, our Cardinal leads Lectio Divina on the first Sunday of every month after Vespers at St. Michael's Cathedral. This is a great way of a) celebrating publicly the liturgy of the hours, and b) encouraging Lectio Divina. It also ensures that the liturgy is separate. It's one of the archived videos at this link: https://livestream.com/stmichaelscathedral/events/7238650
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    Thou shalt meditate for 30 seconds.

    Not 29, nor 31, but precisely 30.

    No more. No less.
    Thanked by 4mmeladirectress Casavant Organist StimsonInRehab tsoapm
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    Stimson you must revise the narrative to incorporate
    https://youtu.be/hCP2xCBEI4o
    Thanked by 1StimsonInRehab
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,940
    "30 seconds"

    Is that equal temperament or just temperament?
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,916
    It is truly right and just temperament, Liam.
    Thanked by 2Liam tsoapm
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,369
    A period for reflection was something I thought missing in the Toronto version. I was struck that several people who gave rapt attention to what the Cardinal was saying appeared to lose focus when he read the scripture (though who am I to judge?) .
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    beginning last century, the church started introducing ambiguities and vagueries into her documents. this has never been the case. all the councils up until vii were always about bringing clarity to doctrine and dogma, establishing universal norms and crushing heresy. that all changed with the revolution of the "pastoral approach", a grave error for those in the business of shepherding. this motu is just another leaning toward the same "undoing" mentality. the church leaders are bent on shedding the central locus of responsibility (and the decentralization of the see) - to hold fast to the faith and to protect and pass on what has been handed down to them.
    Thanked by 1StimsonInRehab
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    please delete
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    It is said that Liberals blur distinctions and Conservatives exaggerate them.

    What is happening in New Zealand, it seems to me, is a blurring of the lines between the public worship by the Church and Lectio Divina which distinction should be maintained. Lectio Divina is valuable in itself, not as a substitute for the Liturgy of the Word within the context of Mass. Reading (privately) and reflecting on the text of Holy Writ is, in itself, a good thing. It isn't the same thing (nor should it be made to be the same thing) as the public proclamation of specific parts of Holy Writ in and as part of an act of public worship.

    As to whether Magnum Principium is being followed or not, we would have to have an authoritative, unambiguous interpretation of the text, since so much of what His Holiness does nowadays is by innuendo and suggestion.
    Thanked by 1CCooze
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,387
    What is happening in New Zealand

    It happened on one Sunday. And it happened in only one archdiocese. It's over. And it had nothing to do with Magnum Principium.

    And Magnum Principium amended one canon in the Code of Canon Law. There is no ambiguity about its interpretation. But how it affects the translation principles of Liturgiam Authenticam is still a wait-and-see matter.
    Thanked by 1a_f_hawkins
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Fr. Krisman,

    If you prefer, "What happened, once, in one archdiocese.... is a blurring of the lines...."

    I stand entirely by what I wrote, adjusted to take account of one concrete situation.

    If your claim is that the event in New Zealand is nothing to get exorcised about, I disagree: experiments have had a way, in the last 60 years, of going from exceptions to experiments to legitimate options to a mandate, not to act in accord with which is enough to have one deemed "trying to be more Catholic than the Pope".

    Lectio Divina and Mass are both good and not interchangeable acts, and blurring the distinction does no service to either action.
    Thanked by 7a_f_hawkins Incardination CCooze StimsonInRehab mmeladirectress francis eft94530
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    *Cough*

    Some fathers need to learn how to be fathers, ya'know.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    why blurring is of the devil

    https://onepeterfive.com/was-the-vatican-ii-revolution-real-or-a-misinterpretation
    Thanked by 1Incardination
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