TLM 1941 Our Lady of Sorrows, Chicago w. play-by-play by Abp. Sheen
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,044
    This may not be new to you, but is to me: an Easter mass video with a cast of thousands.The Ordinary setting (Mass of Christ the King by Rev. Edwin V. Hoover) is definitely a bit Hollywoodish. The Caruso wannabe in the tenor section is interesting too, and very different than anything I've experienced nowadays.
  • Mark P.
    Posts: 248
    Although no masterpiece, the Mass by Father Hoover seems like a masterpiece compared to some of today's drivel.
    Thanked by 1StimsonInRehab
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    Ah yes, back in the days where ability to project the voice was valued more than being able to tap a microphone and saying, "Is it on? Is it on?" and and to raise the arm/s to indicate when to sing since the organist, who knew how to play an introduction that tells when to sing, was replaced by uneducated players of guitars and...bongos.
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,044
    Mark: There's more skill in it, to be sure. But there's an element of taste involved that stands in a direct line to today,
  • ulloa40
    Posts: 10
    Gentlemen:

    After all these years did anyone find a printed copy of Fr. Edwin Hoover's Mass of Christ the KIng that can still be heard on the DVD of the Traditional Mass originally made in the Basilica of Our Lady of Sorrows in Chicago in 1941. Perhaps a copy exists in the archives of Chicago's Mundelein Seminary? I have also wondered whether a pristine copy of the film exists in some archive, either at Mundelein or with the Servites, unlike the chopped up version on the DVD's. This is a rare film of an entire Mass celebrated in the Extraordinary Form when it was universally celebrated in the church.
  • ulloa40
    Posts: 10
    Dear Ladies and Gentlemen:

    Recently, I watched the old 1938 film Angels with Dirty Faces with Pat O'Brien, James Cagney, and Humphrey Bogart. At the beginning the priest is directing the choir and they are singing in rehearsal the "Sanctus". Does anyone know the name of the composer for this piece, and I presume, an entire Mass. I believe that the Robert Mitchell Boys Choir from St. Brendan Church in Los Angeles was used. This choir sang the High Mass every Sunday at the parish and was used in many films. Robert Mitchell directed his choir for 66 years.
  • mmeladirectress
    Posts: 1,075
    mitchellchoirboys.com film history says that was a Schubert Sanctus, is that helpful?
    Thanked by 1ulloa40
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,767
    It's the G major, D. 167 (~9' in)
    Thanked by 2mmeladirectress ulloa40
  • ulloa40
    Posts: 10
    Surprised about the responses after six years. Many thanks to both.
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,916
    Ulloa,

    Here is the full copy of the film. It's a little choppy, but it substantially intact, and includes the credits.

    It also includes a charming introduction by Fr. Hugh Calkins OSM, a priest who has unfortunately been neglected over time. (The Society used to feature a very erudite article by Father about the dubiousness of Natural Family Planning. He was well versed on quite a few subjects.) Seeing Calkins talk about the importance of praying the mass through the use of the missal, and the growth of Catholic devotion in the early twentieth century, makes one lament that the liturgical movement ended up taking the direction it did at the Council.

    (Apparently this movie was shown at the Chicago Opera House, two nights in a row, to packed audiences.)

    The editor of the DVD version (probably some pharisaical EWTN flunky) felt the need to cut Fr. Calkins out. As well as cut short the Gloria and the Victimae Paschali Laudes. Because, you know, that's boring. And who needs to follow the mass, anyway? He also felt the need to include unhelpfully incorrect subtitles during the mass - the "Mass of the Faithful" does not precede the "Mass of the Cathechumens"! The whole thing is a monumental tribute to incompetence in editing and presentation.

    So yeah, watch the full version, because the DVD version deserves every chance to be consigned to the flames.
    Thanked by 1ulloa40
  • Richard R.
    Posts: 774
    Of course, "TLM 1941" is redundant. In 1941, all Ms were both T and L. Would that we didn't have to classify today...
    Thanked by 1ulloa40
  • ulloa40
    Posts: 10
    I am glad that Stimson pointed out the better version of the 1941 film. I was hoping that some one in Chicago Land might hunt done an original, uncut, pristine, copy of the film so that it could be remastered and redone on DVD. Perhaps one of our fine young priests or seminarians? This film is unique in many ways. The Hoover Mass must be lost for good, unless as I wrote earlier, it could be found in the manuscript library of Mundelein Seminary. I wonder if his Mass was used much in the Archdiocese of Chicago, or whether is was just a one time deal. I find it hard to believe that it was used just once and then discarded, and there must have been orchestral parts as well. I believe that the second Victimae Paschali Laudes was by Pietro Yon. Does anyone know where to find a copy? If my memory serves me well, Msgr. Richard Schuler of St. Agnes Church in St. Paul, Minnesota continued to use the Yon version and perhaps it is still done there. Nevertheless, let us continue all efforts for authentic, sacred music.
    Thanked by 1StimsonInRehab
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,916
    The Hoover Mass may not be entirely a lost cause, Ulloa. Here's a few reasons why: First, the results coming up for a search for "Mass of Christ the King" by Edwin Hoover may be fruitless because (as was pointed out somewhere else, can't remember off the top of my head) the mass was mistitled for the film, and is actually the "Mass of the Holy Family". That, perhaps, might be worth looking into.

    Second, watching the film again, I notice in many sections the singers reading from music with artistically rendered headings on the back which were used on copies printed by McLaughlin and Reilly, if memory serves correctly. I know I have a similar heading on one of my pieces, I'll see who exactly the publisher was.

    There's actually a copy of the lovely Yon setting at cpdl, but it doesn't include the orchestral parts (organ accompaniment, though). You might actually write to St. Agnes, as they've made a recent recording of the piece with full choir and orchestra, so I'm guessing they would still have copies. (Also, why do you think there were two sequences in the film? I only saw one . . .)
    Thanked by 2Jeffrey Quick ulloa40
  • Nick BotkinsNick Botkins
    Posts: 31
    Fr. Hoover's Mass is in the choral library at Saint Raymond's Cathedral, Joliet, IL.
    Thanked by 3Jeffrey Quick StimsonInRehab ulloa40
  • ulloa40
    Posts: 10
    You are right about the Victimae Paschali Laudes. I think it is sung in chant and in the Yon version at St. Agnes in St. Paul.
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,916
    Mr. Botkins, you would be doing a corporal act of mercy were you to make some scans from St. Raymond's library . . .

    They must do the version written for Offertory instead of the Sequence at St. Agnes now, if they do both. At least I hope so!
    Thanked by 2ulloa40 Jeffrey Quick
  • ulloa40
    Posts: 10
    Mr. Botkins, I agree with Stimson that you would end a search for many, if you would scan The Mass of the Holy Family by Msgr. Edwin Hoover. There are now many websites to use to scan scarce, out of print, out of copyright music, so that it is available to the whole world. As mentioned above by Stimson the Pietro Yon Victimae Pascali sheet music is available by cpdl. This piece can be used as the Sequence for Easter or, with a few omissions marked in the score, as a motet, probably at the Offertory. The score mentions that there are orchestral parts, but they are not on the scan. Perhaps someone else could add the orchestral settings. The benefit of a public site is that the scans are done once for all. There is no need to replicate again and again for each request. This removes a lot of work for those who have copies of the original music or access to it like Botkins. I would suggest that all those sitting on stacks of scarce Catholic liturgical music consider the scanning approach so that all may benefit. If many get on board with this all would in the end benefit. We are now at the stage where much Catholic liturgical music is becoming very scarce. It is not even found in libraries. If nothing is done, it will virtually disappear forever since the few copies around will be in private collections, if at all, and thus unavailable to others. If many would contribute to a scanning drive eventually matters would become easier as pieces are made available to all.
    Thanked by 2Jeffrey Quick eft94530
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,388
    Stimson and ulloa, can either of you provide proof that Msgr. Hoover's Mass is in the public domain, before asking Mr. Botkins to copy the work, which still may be under copyright?

    If the work is, in fact, in the public domain, can either of you with a straight face contemplate inflicting this awful score upon the People of God nearly 80 years after it was written? Much sacred music which has become forgotten over time deserves to remain forgotten.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    Seeing Calkins talk about the importance of praying the mass through the use of the missal,


    Happened to think about that this morning during Mass--how, back in the Olden Days most of us (kids in grade school) were reading the Missal translations during the entire Mass--and how that was a lot more meaningful than merely listening to the prayers.

    A number of years ago, there was discussion of whether the PIP should be reading the readings or 'attentively listening.' As I recall, the purist LiturgicoWackies insisted that 'attentive listening' was the demand from On High at VatII (or some such stuff.)

    But reading it--seems to me--"prints" into one's mind much more effectively.
    Thanked by 1StimsonInRehab
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,044
    Yes, yes, a thousand times yes. Academic libraries (even, by and large, Catholic ones) don't/didn't collect this stuff, and boatloads got thrown out when the meteor hit.

    It's important to remember that IMSLP is governed by Canadian copyright law, which is 50 years after the death of the creator. If Msgr. Hoover died before 1967, you're good to go. And its awfulness is not a reason not to preserve it.

    If anyone is sitting on publisher orchestral parts, I'd love to see them. My suspicion is that they were manuscript and most like (but not certainly) rental. I don't know of any currently being held by anyone, but they were a fairly common thing in publisher catalogs.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen StimsonInRehab
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,369
    But reading it--seems to me--"prints" into one's mind much more effectively.
    Not for me, people vary. Reading a play is, for me, a very poor substitute for attending a performance. Liturgy is, of course, a very different matter, but I tend to 'say silently' the Office and not just look at it in the book. I know there are books of sermons, but doubt they have the same effect as listening to the preacher. However, people vary.
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,916
    This makes me wonder if Walter Ong S.J. ever covered this aspect of liturgy in his studies of orality and literacy.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,157
    A 2006 posting on a Yahoo music discussion group presented some information about the Mass setting. Scott Knitter of Chicago posted this:


    Many thanks to Dick Siegel for supplying this additional information:

    The music director at Holy Name Cathedral, seen as the choir director
    in the movie, was Rev. Edwin V. Hoover. A Chicago native, Hoover
    studied theology at the North American College in Rome where he also
    had the opportunity for private study with Refice and Perosi. Upon
    his ordination and return to Chicago in 1926, Father Hoover was named
    director of the Cardinal's Cathedral Choristers at Holy Name Cathedral
    and Professor of History at Quigley Seminary, positions he retained
    until 1941 when he was transferred to St. Raymond Parish in Joliet,
    IL. Hoover's accomplishments in Chicago also included conducting
    appearances in Orchestra Hall with the Chicago Symphony and the
    Cathedral Choristers in the Chicago premier of Pietro Yon's "The
    Triumph of St. Patrick", and bestowal of an honorary doctorate in
    music from DePaul University.

    Upon coming to Joliet, Hoover formed a Boy's Choir and insisted that
    music be a regular part of daily curriculum in the parish school. With
    St. Raymond's being raised to the dignity of a Cathedral in 1948,
    Hoover actively presided over the formation of an all-male (30 men, 70
    boys) Cathedral Choir which would be engaged for all pontifical
    ceremonies. (This group was disbanded in the late 1970s.) In 1959, the
    Vatican honored Hoover by elevating him to the rank of Protonotary
    Apostolic. Monsignor Hoover took emeritus status in 1969 and died on
    April 21, 1970.

    The Organist in the video is believed to be Holy Name Cathedral
    organist Al Wideman.

    The Mass ordinary setting is listed in the movie credits as the "Mass
    of Christ the King." Its actual title was the "Mass in honor of the
    Holy Family" which was dedicated to Chicago's Archbishop Cardinal
    Mundelein. The reason for the change in title is unknown. The original
    movie contains the entire setting of the mass rather than the
    truncated version available in the on-line version.

    The Mass propers were chanted by the St. Mary of the Lake Seminary
    Choir under the Direction of Rev. Joseph Kush, a graduate of the
    Pontifical Institute of Sacred Music in Rome.

    Other music presented in the original movie included "Victimae
    Paschale Laudes" by Pietro Yon, "Regina Coeli" by M. A. Melvil, and a
    snippet of the "Grand Responsive Chorus" by Gigout played as the
    ministers process into the sanctuary.


    Thanked by 2Jeffrey Quick eft94530
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,157
    I've made a search of the Copyright catalogs for music published from 1923-1948 and found no works by Fr. Hoover, so I expect that the Mass setting was not published. If he left it to the diocese of Joliet, they could grant you permission to copy it; as an unpublished work, its copyright runs to 2040 (70 years after Fr. Hoover's passing).
  • ulloa40
    Posts: 10
    Of course, nothing should be reprinted or scanned if there would be a violation of copyright. That is clear. I presume that if Botkins would be willing to scan the original score for "The Mass of the Holy Family" that he would first check whether it is now in public domain. Choral scanning sites would also demand that it be out of copyright. As mentioned, it is Botkins choice to pursue or not. I respect his decision. He need not explain one way or the other. It would be an act of kindness. Scanning the original would make possible academic and musical studies of the score in addition to the possibility of performing all or just parts of the Mass. Actually, making the score available again would serve many purposes. If it is a flawed piece of music those who study music would like to see for themselves. Hunting down copyrights is often a dead end pursuit. It is impossible in many cases to find a company, individual, or heir from whom to request permission. Letters and emails are often not answered or end up nowhere or are sent back. What happens when no one can be found who claims to control the copyrights after a serious and extensive search?
    Thanked by 1chonak
  • ulloa40
    Posts: 10
    St. Raymond Cathedral in Joliet, Illinois maintains a fine music program for all liturgical events and also at special concerts throughout the year. There are adult and children's choirs. On their website the selection of music for 2017-2018 is posted. Certainly, not all the selections are still in print! And yes the Adult Choir will sing the "Gloria" from "The Mass of the Holy Family" by Msgr. Edwin Hoover at a concert with Saint Xavier University on Sunday, November 12, 2017. On Sunday, June 3, 2018 the Adult Choir will sing the "Agnus Dei" and the "Gloria" from the same Mass for the Solemnity of Corpus Christi. The children's choir will sing a piece by Msgr. Hoover on Christmas Eve called "Across the Hills." As readers know Msgr. Hoover played a significant role in the program of Sacred Music in the Archdiocese of Chicago for many years and then later as pastor at St.Raymond's which became the cathedral. Clearly his legacy lives on. Requiescat in pace!
    Thanked by 1Jeffrey Quick
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,044
    M. A. Melvil? Drawing a blank on that one.
  • ulloa40
    Posts: 10
    There is a Regina Coeli by M. A. Melvil arranged by Eduardo Marzo, published on January 18, 1916 by Oliver Ditson Company, Boston. A copy is listed at the University of Notre Dame Library in the Basilica of Our Lady of Sorrows manuscript collection.
    Thanked by 1Jeffrey Quick
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,916
    Other music presented in the original movie included . . .


    If I'm not mistaken, there's a snippet from Franck's Panis Angelicus during Communion as well.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    wow... hard to believe this is only years before i was born

    where has gone our glorious tradition?
  • KARU27
    Posts: 184
    where has gone our glorious tradition?


    I often think along these lines, when I think about the loss of faith (as evidenced in my husband's family). About 2 generation from fully participating Catholics to apathetic atheists.
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,916
    You know, next Colloquium will be in Chicago - they should work it into their schedule to do a reenactment of this entire movie at Our Lady of Sorrows. Fr. Friel plays Fr. Calkins. Fr. Pasley and company offer mass. Then we convince Fr. Z to play Msgr. Sheen.
    Thanked by 1KARU27
  • KARU27
    Posts: 184
    Maybe we could get Paul McCreesh to be in charge of the reenactment.
  • ulloa40
    Posts: 10
    Taking up the comments of francis and KARU27 "where has gone our glorious tradition?" I feel that we must take the high road. After Summorum Pontificum we have a window of opportunity to re-discover tradition. For example, parishes like St. John Cantius in Chicago, St. Agnes in St. Paul, and Star of the Sea in San Francisco are part of the restoration movement. We all must do our part to support the good efforts underway. As for handing on the faith, the late Cardinal George once remarked that the liberals aren't very good at handing on the faith. They know how to expose the faults of the past, but not how to stand on the faith of all times. The insidious attempts to undermine the entire faith continue from within and outside the Church. Entire families over several generations have fallen away. Those who are older like me know this and at times weep. However, renewal begins with my own love of the Lord. Then I try to reach out soul by soul the best I can with kindness and a smile. I might not be able to interest a close relative, but then there is the kind woman or man next door, who might be looking for God. Let us reach out to the young, who will marry and start wonderful families to the greater honor and glory of God. The harvest is great, but indeed the laborers are few. Sursum Corda!
    Thanked by 2KARU27 Drake
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