Francis: With magisterial authority I affirm that liturgical reform is irreversible
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    True and False Reform in the Church
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Ok.. did a quick read. 287 pages.

    It seems to me that YC is grinding and gnashing his teeth at what God has established in the OHCAC. He doesn't like what the church has become and is determined to change it into what he (and others) would like it to become. Dulles lauds his efforts.

    Reform is his lifelong goal and ambition for the church. Energy entirely misdirected. John XXIII turned YC into a "hero" of 20th century "reform" in the culminating act of calling for VII. Another Bugnini of sorts.

    Another self proclaimed innovator in the name of searching for the "authentic roots" of Christianity when all he had to do was to delve into and discover the treasures of the kingdom right in front of his nose.

    His is one of the false reforms.
  • Francis,

    Thank you for that summary. It sounds as if many people buy the "authentic roots" argument, because he is hugely popular in some circles.
    Thanked by 1francis
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    YC quotes:

    For me, the distinction adopted by Emmanuel Mounier (and, in substance, also by Jacques Maritain) between “Christianity” and the “Christian world” provided an effective intellectual framework within which these hopes for renewal could be acknowledged and dealt with. It was a question of liberating the Gospel from more or less outmoded sociological, pastoral, and liturgical forms so as to give it the best possible chance of success in a world calling for new forms, new expressions, and new structures.


    I am soooooooooo glad you have finally liberated the Gospel. It is paramount that WE ANSWER TO THE WOLRD(???) calling for new forms, expressions and structures.

    In a few short weeks John XXIII created a new climate in the church, and then came the council.2 This most significant breakthrough came from on high. All of a sudden, forces for renewal which had scarcely had room to breathe found ways to be expressed.

    Yup... we are well aware. Not just a new climate, a NUchurch!

    The cautious suggestions for reform mentioned in my text of 19503 have been surpassed by far. What is happening right now, insofar as it is positive, is certainly in line with what I had intended, yet it goes a great deal further, well beyond what one could have hoped for in 1950. Liturgical reform is still in full swing, parish and pastoral councils (with lay participation) are being formed, and there is a restoration of what one could call the conciliar life of the church (the Synod of Bishops, episcopal conferences, diocesan synods, etc.). Further, research in the area of religious studies is being officially
    encouraged, as well as research about and the first steps toward a new program for the
    formation of the clergy, etc.


    Yeah... they have an entirely new program all right. They have no idea of their own personhood... In Personae Christi.

    On the whole, despite some unfortunate exceptions, theologians now enjoy the freedom that they need for their research and writing. But more than anything, two great changes already characterize the climate within the church and will continue to do so more and more: an ecclesiology based on the “People of God” and ecumenism


    Yeah... we got that. WE THE PEOPLE are the church JUST as much as YOU the CLERGY. Rebellion at its best. That is why we had you priests turn around and FACE US! WE are the important element that needs to be central.

    But I have not yet finished pointing out the consequences of the ecclesiological initiatives of Vatican II. The council transcended a purely “hierarchy-centered” ecclesiology and it denounced legalism (without, of course, proposing ignorance of law!).


    On the contrary, you all rejected the law in preference to novelty.

    It gave primacy to an ontology of grace rooted in the sacraments, and primacy as well to baptism with respect to all other roles in the church as a society of persons. The council adopted an apostolic, rather than a primarily ritual, understanding of the priesthood, giving full value to the place of the Word and to catechesis; and it recognized charisms and the variety of ministries in the church, etc.


    "The council adopted ITS OWN PREFFERED UNDERSTANDING of the priesthood... and it is in ruin."

    As for ecumenism, it has become or is on the way to becoming a dimension that touches the church’s entire life, even its internal concerns.4 This change of perspective will entail reinterpretation, opening and broadening out our thinking to a degree that we cannot at present measure. But this link between ecumenism and the spirit of renewal, which I perceived and emphasized from the beginning, is equally apparent now from the other side; renewal is not only required by ecumenism as a sort of prelude, but renewal is also nourished by ecumenism.


    Ecumenism was the trojan horse that invaded the church from within.

    Just as the ecclesial climate is new today, so also is our way of posing questions. We now proceed more by addition and deepening than by substituting new data for traditional sources. Our questions are still questions about adaptation, but they have become more radical, not only because they are more difficult, more rigorous, and more urgent, but also because they are posed today in a way that touches the very roots of the church and its faith.


    Yeah... you touched the roots alright... with poison.

    Although we functioned in 1947-1950 on the basis of and within the framework of a solid Catholic structure, today we are intellectually and culturally torn out of a Catholic framework, perhaps even out of a religious framework, and thrown into a world which, by its vitality and its innovation, imposes its problems upon us. The study of the history of ecclesiological doctrines which I pursued for thirteen or fourteen years made me realize that one’s sense of the church depends, in a decisive way, upon one’s sense of the world and of the relationship one sees between church and world. Here we have the problematic relation between the “two powers” and their characteristic confrontation, which has in large part determined the prevailing concept of
    “church” as authority and power. The temporal power had to become fully “lay,” and the church had to acknowledge that lay character fully for the church to be able to
    understand itself and define itself purely as “church.”


    Simply diabolical thinking here. Here is the modernist manifesto... "The temporal power had to become fully “lay,” and the church had to acknowledge that lay character fully for the church to be able to understand itself and define itself purely as “church.” " The church does not define us, WE define the church!

    Thank heavens, the Catholic Church didn’t define itself until Vatican II, after all the often violent confrontations between it and temporal society had been more or less put to rest. Furthermore, in defining itself, the church benefited from a retrieval of rich biblical sources as they reemerged formally and frankly for the first time since the Middle Ages. In the end, the church has adopted a new way of understanding the temporal order in keeping with the real situation of the world.5


    Hahahahaha... the church did not define itself until VII??????!!!!!!!!!

    There is no longer really a question of “two powers.” Certain questions are still posed in those terms, but they are decidedly of little and perhaps narrow concern when one considers what “the temporal” represents today for the consciousness of Christians. At issue now is the question of how to grasp the world and its history in their full dimensions, their full significance, with all their dynamism and all their problems.
    Temporality has to do with the determination of Christians to exercise their
    responsibilities in building up the world with a view toward the kingdom of God.
    You don’t need to go as far as inferring that an interest in the world represents a
    betrayal of the faith in order to
    recognize that our period in history can be characterized by a genuine discovery of the
    world by Christians. This discovery is accompanied by a shock of awareness, grasped
    often only in general terms, that Christians have new responsibilities for the world. In
    making such a transition, what pertains to the world may feel as though it has an
    importance, an immediacy and a relevance that outweigh the claims of the faith and the
    affairs of the church. While wanting to remain faithful Christians, we nonetheless find
    that the world, not the church, sets the agenda. The world poses challenging questions
    with respect to the faith’s claims and goals.


    People... don't even waste your time on this nonsense.
  • VilyanorVilyanor
    Posts: 388
    Whatever the content of that book, I agree with Jackson that "Tradition and Traditions" is very good. Concerning Liturgical materia, Congar was rather modernist, but in some of his writings on the substance of the liturgy, he still does a good job.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    ?? Vilyanor. I am totally missing your point.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,372
    Congar wrote this book in 1967. I suggest that at that time, well before the NO had been finalised, it was not obvious that the reform process had got out of hand, even to the then Professor J. A. Ratzinger. So, read with hindsight, but do not condemn the author for lack of hindsight.
  • Based on Bugnini, there was plenty of information about what was being planned and executed -- at least among experts and members of the Curia.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    The correctness of Abp. Bugnini's recollections has been disputed; for example, in the memoir of Louis Bouyer, who depicts him as an unscrupulous figure who told people whatever it would take to get their unwitting cooperation with his ideas.
  • Chonak,

    I'm happy accepting the idea of a self-serving author trying to make himself look pristine and his adversaries or pawns black as coal, but that doesn't change the facts of the case.
  • Best commentary on this subject anywhere from Gregory DiPippo at NLM.
    - Just a few thoughts of my own then, to wrap up.

    The post-Conciliar liturgical reform has been in every way a complete success. The Fathers of Vatican II knew ahead of time that the letter of Sacrosanctum Concilium would be repeatedly disobeyed in the actual execution of the reform, and approved of this, knowing that the same Spirit which inspired such holy foreknowledge within them would lead to greater and better achievements than they themselves could ever have envisioned. The committees that produced the reform acted from only very highest and purest motives; their liturgical scholarship was impeccable in every way, nor has any part of it subsequently been proved wrong or outdated.

    Shortly after the promulgation of Sacrosanctum Concilium, an article in the Osservatore Romano proclaimed that the Council had officially embraced and approved of the goals of the first Liturgical Movement. And indeed, the wildest hopes of Dom Gueranger, the Blessed Schuster, Fr Fortescue and Dom Beauduin have been fulfilled in our times. Liturgical piety now flourishes as never before among the Catholic faithful, who have almost all joyfully embraced the reformed rites.

    Of course, every movement with the Church, be it ever so obviously led and driven by the Spirit, encounters some resistance from reactionaries. “Reactionary” is a word to conjure with, as are the many abstract nouns which are helpfully employed to categorize the unhealthy motives lurking in the dark corners of the reactionary mind. The –isms take the lead here, with “clericalism” as the perennial favorite, alongside “triumphalism” and “formalism”; beyond them wait “rigidity”, “nostalgia”, and a panoply of others. In this most blessed age, however, the reactionaries are so few, their complaints so unreasonable, their challenge so baseless, that there is no need to respond to them at all.

    Indeed, given the perfect triumph of the reform, it is difficult to see why any need was felt at all to assert (whether directly or obliquely) that it cannot be undone. We may even question whether such an assertion is altogether prudent, since it might suggest to some a degree of insecurity about its future, which is of course wholly unwarranted.
  • Chonak,

    What's Bouyer's book called?

    Arthur,

    I don't know the author of the piece you cite, but does he work under the pseudonym "Eric Blair"?
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,704
    Louis Bouyer 'Memoirs' or the original French 'Mémoires'

    "oeuvre d'un trio de maniaques", and describes Archbishop Bugnini as "meprisable" and "aussi depourvu de culture que de simple honnêteté"...
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    Arthur, the statement allegedly written by DiPippo was actually composed by "Baghad Bob" just before his untimely death, and smuggled to DiPippo for publication.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    CGZ: it's common knowledge that Abp. Bugnini was a bad guy; two different Popes kicked him out of Rome to....ahhh.....less desirable posts. Fr. Bouyer's commentary merely frosts the cake.

    Anything built on deception, lies, and/or half-truths will fail, sooner or later. Clearly, the liturgical revolution failed--the under-30 crowd is fleeing it as though it were poison ivy for good reason: it simply fails to convey "the sacred."

    This is not to doubt the liceity, nor validity, by the way.
  • Dad29,

    I have read Michael Davies' books on the topic.

  • ViolaViola
    Posts: 394
    I am presently reading The Stripping of the Altars by Prof. Eamon Duffy, and can hardly put it down. Although it describes events of 500 years ago, what it has to say is very relevant now. It demonstrates how the Reformation 'represented a violent rupture from a popular and theologically respectable religious system'. And the achievements of modern iconoclasts, just like those of John Knox's followers, can be seen in many churches today.
  • Amen, Viola!

    Eamon Duffy's book should be required reading in every Catholic school and seminary - and even more especially for Ordinariate folk.

    It is notable that now, like then, our present decades-long iconoclasm and theological debasement was imposed 'top down', though the resistance has been relatively small and ineffectual - by far most 'ears' have been and remain obstinately deaf to any and all opposition. It is glaringly notable to me that, even in the case of nearly all of our theologically conservative priests and prelates, there is little or no concomitant interest on their part in a more historically rooted liturgy and music regimen.
    Thanked by 3CharlesW CHGiffen Viola
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    ...and the likes of Springsteen are part of the cultural decay
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    CGZ, the edition I have is from Angelico Press, with the title "The Memoirs of Louis Bouyer", though I see there is also an edition from Ignatius, titled "Memoirs".
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,945
    ...cultural decay

    Well, if mice can cover Saint-Saens, is all creation lost?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWxkv3fPsag