Requesting advice on chanting Liturgia Horarum daily
  • Julio_GarridoJulio_Garrido
    Posts: 17
    Greetings from Santiago de Chile,

    I've been reading this forum for over a year, and I'm a member of the CMAA, but this is my first post and topic. I would like to thank, in the first place, to all the very knowledgeable members that make this forum such a great resource on everything related to Gregorian Chant.

    I'm a chanted Office enthusiast, but I "struggle" daily to sing Liturgia Horarum in Latin, for Lauds, Vespers and Compline, according to the 2015 Ordo Cantus Officii. For Compline, I use Ad Completorium by Steven Van Roode (Thank you for this great book!), and for Vespers on Sundays and feasts the Antiphonale Romanum II.

    For Lauds everyday and Vespers on weekdays, my procedure is more or less like this:

    1) I sing the invitatory antiphon and psalm for Lauds from the Liber Hymnarius.

    2) The hymns, obviously from the Liber Hymnarius too.

    3) Sadly, I just recite the psalms with the antiphons from iBreviary (a shame).

    4) In advance, I collect the brief responsories according to the OCO in my tablet, so I can sing them daily without much time invested.

    5) I locate the Mangificat and Benedictus antiphon for the day in the source specified in the OCO (when this is possible!) and sing the Gospel canticle in accordance.

    Even with this minimum singing, there are times when the OCO asks for an antiphon from the manuscript tradition, or one listed in the Corpus Antiphonalium Officii or the Antiphonarium Cisterciense or any other rather uncommon source (unlike the familiar Antiphonale Romanum (1912) or the Antiphonale Monasticum (1934) for example) and I'm left without a practical musical setting and usually, to my frustration, end up with the Gospel canticle recited. Also, I don't like to recite the psalms, but I don't have the time to look for the three antiphons on a daily basis, especially when the OCO directs to the sources listed above.

    As far as I understand, some of this "manuscript tradition" antiphons have been restored in Saulnier's Antiphonale Monasticum (2005 ->) (but arranged for the monastic practice) and I think they can even be found in Les Heures Gregoriennes. I would like to ask you, more experienced in this area than me, if investing in one, or both of these works would make singing the Liturgia Horarum any less problematic, or at least to have the music so I don't miss chanting the psalms or Gospel canticles because I lack a antiphon from an obscure source.

    Thanks in advance!
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen smvanroode
  • joerg
    Posts: 139
    When you search for "OCO MMXV" on this forum, you will find two posts of mine with detailed sources for all the antiphons of the 4-week ferial psalter.
    For Advent and the Christmas season there is a very good new book by Alberto Turco
    "Antiphonae et Responsoria pro diurnis horis..." (Edizioni MelosAntiqua, Verona 2016.) For Lent and Easter Vol. 1 of the Antiphonale Monasticum 2005 will probably suffice.
    Thanked by 3igneus CHGiffen Julio_Garrido
  • igneusigneus
    Posts: 405
    Btw., (the old) Antiphonale Monasticum is online, Antiphonale Cisterciense too.

    I am happy to hear that some bits of the Cistercian chant tradition found way into the new OCO.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Julio_Garrido
  • Here's a routine reminder: Be patient about legitimate differences in personal taste.
  • Julio_GarridoJulio_Garrido
    Posts: 17
    When you search for "OCO MMXV" on this forum, you will find two posts of mine with detailed sources for all the antiphons of the 4-week ferial psalter.

    Thank you very much for that outstanding work. I see you realise that Saulnier's Antiphonale Monasticum and Les Heures Gregoriennes are pretty accurate in their antiphons for the psalter. Please, correct me if I'm wrong, does this means that a convenient way to have a practical edition for the psalter without looking through various different sources (and finally investing a good time in editing my own book) would be buying one of these works?

    For Advent and the Christmas season there is a very good new book by Alberto Turco
    "Antiphonae et Responsoria pro diurnis horis..." (Edizioni MelosAntiqua, Verona 2016.)

    I jumped immediately to look for this, but I haven't found a single reference or bookstore to buy it. Do you know how can I get it? I'm sorry if this information is common knowledge for you, but I've been a slow learner.

    Btw., (the old) Antiphonale Monasticum is online, Antiphonale Cisterciense too.

    Thank you, igneus, I was not aware that these resources were scanned and available.
  • Julio_GarridoJulio_Garrido
    Posts: 17
    In other words, is it reasonable to buy the full set of Les Heures Gregoriennes , after the modifications of the 2015 Ordo Cantus Officii?
  • joerg
    Posts: 139
    Unfortunately "Les heures gregoriennes" is the only printed source for the current antiphons of the 4-week ferial psalter, and it is expensive. The ferial psalter is contained in every one of its 3 volumes, so 1 volume would suffice, but I think one cannot buy a single colume, you always have to buy the whole set for approx. $300.
    Why not use Jakub Pavlík's antiphonale? It's according to the 1983 OCO. In my mind this is not that much worse than the 2015 OCO. Both versions try to solve the same fundamental problem: For many of the psalms of the ferial office there simply is no corresponding antiphon from the classical repertoire. While OCO 1983 uses a number of neo gregorian chants to fill the lacunae, OCO 2015 uses only medieval antiphons but from differing traditions and sometimes from obscure sources. I find the latter approach at least as questionable as the former one.
    As for the seasonal antiphons vol 1 of the Antiphonale Monasticum 2005 will be enough, although it's been severely criticized for the reconstitutions of some melodies.
    But it's the best we have while waiting for the completion of Alberto Turco's antiphonale.
    (BTW I bought its first volume for EUR 25 in Rome in the Libreria Editrice Vaticana, but haven't found it in their most recent catalogue -- maybe you could just write them to obtain a copy.)
    Thanked by 1Julio_Garrido
  • Julio_GarridoJulio_Garrido
    Posts: 17
    Your reply is really enlightening, joerg. Thank you very much!

    I just wrote to Libreria Editrice Vaticana, to see if I have luck with Turco's Antiphonale. I really wonder why there are no references of it on the internet, or any announcement of its publication in New Liturgical Movement, for example.

    Thanks for bringing Jakub Pavlík's psalterium to my attention. It seems to be a really good alternative.

    I didn't know Saulnier's Antiphonale Monasticum has been so criticised, although it is something that he expected, according to his own introduction to the work as found in the Chant Cafe.
  • Here's a routine reminder: Be patient about legitimate differences in personal taste.
  • igneusigneus
    Posts: 405
    Thanks for bringing Jakub Pavlík's psalterium to my attention. It seems to be a really good alternative.


    Easily available - yes. Good - not really. It's incomplete and I know almost nothing about medieval musicology and current state-of-the-art chant restoration principles. The pieces which i had to "excavate" from manuscripts suffer from this ignorance. They are simply uncritical transcriptions of the medieval sources.
    Thanked by 1Julio_Garrido
  • stanmetheny
    Posts: 12
    I chant all the hours of the Liturgia Horarum every day, plus Compline from the BR. Following closely the Ordo Cantus Officii (OCO) and/or the typica alteraof the LH requires many books. Even if one has all the sources, not all the antiphons in the OCO/LHare readily found in modern editions. For the day hours, I use Les Heures Gregoriennes (LHG) supplemented by the Antiphonale Monasticum 2005 where Fr. Diradourian repeats antiphons 'for pastoral reasons' as he explained it. Matins involves use of the Liber Responsorialis, Ordo Hebdomodae Sanctae, the older Antiphonale Monasticum 1934, the Psalterium Monasticum 1981, and the Nocturnal Romanum. No need to be as anal about antiphonal choices as I am and use all these supplemental sources, though. A set of LHG is best single source for daily use. It can suffice for all the hours except Matins.
    Thanked by 1Julio_Garrido
  • joerg
    Posts: 139
    While in Rome for the congress on "Chiesa e Compositori" which is currently being organized by the Ponifical Council for Culture I bought the second volume of Alberto Turco's antiphonale with the antiphons for Lent and Easter. I also had occasion to talk to Mons. Turco and he told me that he had just completed the third volume with the ferial antiphons which is already in print and may appear by December. He's also currently working on the Sanctorale. So we will finally have reliable editions for most of the required repertoire!
  • CatherineS
    Posts: 690
    I use Les Heures Gregoriennes. After 5 years of floundering around in a library of books, I can finally sit down and chant Laudes or Vespers in Latin without it being an hour-long project. When I don't chant, I prefer to read the Latin from the 1962 Breviarium. But trying to chant the 1962 Office from multiple books was so much work I gave up on it happening with any frequency (which is a viscious circle, because with more practice it would get easier). But I'm a busy lay person, so I'd rather the joy of a little chant than none at all.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,529
    Brother Choleric -
    1955b.jpg
    506 x 766 - 290K
    Thanked by 3Andrew_Malton StimsonInRehab DCM
  • jsigur
    Posts: 12
    Wait a few months and a new Antiphonale containing all of the music for the Ordinary Form Office in Latin will be published... Information forthcoming. I'm still tracking down a few antiphons, but I have collected perhaps 95% of all of the GABC for a new Antiphonale Romanum. I hope to finish before my ordination to the priesthood next June. If anyone is an expert at tracking down some of the more-difficult-to-find antiphons, please send me a message and I may have a mission for you...
    Antiphonale Romanum Vol 1 - DRAFT.pdf
    13M
    Thanked by 2GerardH DCM
  • igneusigneus
    Posts: 405
    @jsigur Triple wow.

    Three observations:

    1. I don't find it very fitting for a private publication to contain all the decrees as if it was an official liturgical book.
    2. The Latin in there needs some proof-reading. (If the proof-reading time comes and there are no fierce latinists around there, feel free to PM me.)
    3. For musical pieces taken from printed editions indicated by the OCO there is no need to list sources in the antiphonale, but for the more obscure ones this would be most desirable.

    (4. I doubt this can be finished by next June if one is simultaneously finishing his studies and preparing for ordination. Depends on the amount of sleep required, of course.)
    Thanked by 1jsigur
  • jsigur
    Posts: 12
    1) The plan is to seek ecclesiastical approbation once it is completed. The next step will be to look for a printer/publisher...

    2) We will need proofreaders at some point in the not so distant future. This is a very early draft from some time ago, so a few things have changed. Most of the Latin was copied from existing decrees which could very well be poorly written and/or transcribed.

    3) The antiphonale will be properly indexed with the sources listed. I have a massive spreadsheet listing all of said information.

    4. We'll see. Volume 1 is almost done. Much of the content from the first volume will be repeated in the second and third (Ordinary, Four Week Psalter, Compline, Complementary Psalmody, Common of Saints, etc.).
  • Here's a routine reminder: Be principled not polemical.
  • igneusigneus
    Posts: 405
    2) I meant mostly "editorial Latin" on the title page, in rubrics and titles. (I didn't read the decrees, just skimmed through the whole book to see what it's like and what is included.)
  • schendricks
    Posts: 14
    In case anyone else had trouble finding this. Am I correct that this is Turco's Antiphonae & Responsoria?

    (Forum source)
    Libellus.pdf
    3M
  • igneusigneus
    Posts: 405
    No, https://www.antiphonale.net/ is @joerg 's OCO 2015 website. @joerg is not Alberto Turco and "Antiphonae & Responsoria" is a set of printed book(let?)s, not a website. (I have no idea if, how and where these can be purchased.)
  • francis
    Posts: 10,987
    3) Sadly, I just recite the psalms with the antiphons from iBreviary (a shame).
    please NEVER EVER feel ashamed to pray… even when you are not chanting… I pray the hours in English using BrevMeum (in silence … ) and believe me… God “hears” you just as if you were chanting the Latin. It is your time and effort to pray that is critical and beloved by the Almighty.
    Thanked by 5CHGiffen tomjaw LauraKaz a_f_hawkins OMagnumMysterium
  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 1,034
    In case anyone else had trouble finding this. Am I correct that this is Turco's Antiphonae & Responsoria?


    Yes, it is. @joerg Hundelmaier did a tremendous job transcribing Antiphonæ et Responsoria of Alberto Turco in gabc. However, not all antiphons at antiphonale.net are from Turco: the ad libitum antiphons for Sunday Benedictus and Magnificat are not part of Antiphonæ et Responsoria and were taken from other sources.

    We have to laud Turco for providing the entire body of antiphons needed for Liturgia Horarum according to the 2015 Ordo cantus officii. I ordered his chants books (also his Liber Gradualis) directly from an Italian bookstore: musidora.libri@libero.it
    Thanked by 2schendricks DCM
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