Meaning of 'Missa'
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Was on retreat today. Leader said missa literally means 'work of the people'. Sounds suspect to me. Thought? Answers?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,157
    Nope. He's thinking of a different historical word. "Leitourgia", a Greek word literally signifying "work of the people"....

    denoted a voluntary work -- political, technical, or religious -- that was performed for the people as a whole.
    (source: Lang, "Dictionary of the Liturgy")


    "Missa", a Latin word, is the past participle of mittere, "to send": thus, "sent".
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    chonak is correct: see the final pages of FORTESCUE's "The Mass: A study of the Roman Liturgy"

    APPENDIX I: page 397

    Actually, the first sentence to that chapter is a real gem (as so many of Fortescue' sentences are).
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,157
    Oh, yeah, as if we all had that book at hand next to the computer. :-) C'mon, quote the gem sentence!

    francis, I hope the retreat was good apart from the scholarly faux pas and whatever bad conclusions the speaker based on it.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    I am happy to report that fortescues book does indeed sit right next to my computer. I think Jeff knew that. Thanks all. Hope to meet many of you at the colloquium if I make it.
  • David AndrewDavid Andrew
    Posts: 1,204
    Danger, Will Robinson!

    All too often the "progressivists" use the translation of "Leitourgia" as a way of justifying oh too many of the innovations of the NO we're all familiary with . . . an over-abundance of EMHC's, female altar "servers", inclusive language, and on and on it goes.

    Anyone, be they lay or priest, who would even hint that "missa" means anything other than "sent" hasn't done their homework and is a part of the problem of poor catechesis.

    If they can't get that right, how on earth can we expect notions of faith, hope and charity or any other teachings of the Church, to get a fair shake?

    Just askin'.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    Fortescu on your computer? The publisher is legendary for his IP claims to that.
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,183
    David has got it right. The words do matter. C'mon, missa equals "work of the people". Yes, make me laugh.

    That okay, my DRE stated that stational masses got started in Syria in the 4th century so that a bishop did not have to get to every parish. I had to swallow my tongue and everything else so as not to either laugh or correct her.

    Playing with words can be hazardous to the liturgy.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Jeff:

    Not ON, sitting NEXT TO so everyone who comes in my office clearly sees it. Boy I wish I had a digital copy of that!
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Chonak

    Actually, it was worse. Half the morning was spent on self analyzation using Jungian sickology and meyers Briggs personality testing. And this was sponsored by the KofC. Was highly disappointed and amazed at how lacking is the spiritual state of many who call themselves Catholic. I find myself constantly defending the faith even among those who are supposed to be in the know.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,157
    That error you spotted is rather revealing.

    Confusing "missa" and "leitourgia" shows that the speaker knows neither Latin nor Greek, so he's cut off from direct knowledge of the liturgy, the New Testament, and Catholic heritage. He's just echoing, in a confused form, some propaganda he learned in a workshop somewhere.

    Too bad we weren't all there. We might have corrected him en masse and enjoyed it. I think my Jungian type is "thorn in the punchbowl" or something like that.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Well, many of the questions I selected both a and b and many of them I could not answer at all. I told them that a model of putting people into categories leaves out the spiritual dimension of humanity which is the central element. That pretty much dissed the Jung dung.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,157
    Well, it's not all junk. The "four temperaments" system has been used in Catholic contexts. Grace does build on nature, so recognizing our personal psychological characteristics may be a help in our efforts to seek virtue.

    Fr. Conrad Hock's old book about temperament is available on the web, and even the traditionalist Angelus Press publishing house (connected to SSPX) thinks it's orthodox: they sell a reprint of it. Of course, that is not to endorse whatever theory Jung added on top of the classic temperament system.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Chonak.

    This is not temperments. This is personality type. Completely different. Google Jung typology test.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,157
    I'm familiar with it. I took the MBTI when it was all the rage back in the '80s and read a couple of books about it. There is some debate among people who use these typology schemes on how to assign the MBTI types to the four temperaments, but one simple version is:
    Sanguine: the SP types
    Phlegmatic: the SJ types
    Choleric: the NF types
    Melancholic: the NT types
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    So chonak, which temperment are you?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,157
    If I remember by the time the colloquium rolls around, I'll tell you there. :-)
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    Phlegmatic/Choleric here. That's a big duh.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Where is the info or test to determine ones temperment?
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    francis,

    I guess I do not understand the current meaning of "retreat".
    It seems the material presented was off-topic.

    If it was an off-site/workshop, your few words suggest
    the material seems misleading and incomplete.
    Regarding the last, another 1980s system, the Enneagram, could have been presented, too.
    The 1980s. Been there, done that. What little I recall of these systems is
    everyone looking at everyone else, trying to figure out types (titles, letters, numbers, whatever).
    I think these are largely unhelpful due to conflicting and contrary presentations,
    and end in subjectivism, relativism, manipulation.

    francis: "putting people into categories leaves out the spiritual dimension"

    Yes! How many categories should we have? Four? Sixteen? Eighty-one?
    Talk about humans and there is only one category: Sinner.
    Talk about heaven and there is only one category: Saint.
    Better to have had a morning beginning with distribution of a pen and paper
    listing virtues and their definitions and a space for self score and notes for improvement,
    and then sit in the chapel to ponder the situation and form a plan to attain the goal!
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Eft:

    What is truly tragic in modern society has been the replacement of the word 'sin' for the word 'sickness'. Fulton Sheen was outspoken on this error about how psychologists and their "craft" has replaced the work, ministry and sacrament that only comes from the Church through the priest. Jungian principles have unearthed a deluge of darkness through the work of alchemy shrouded behind the sterility of pharmacological science. This is such a fantastic deception that it has wreaked utter havoc on the entire modern world. The doctor's couch has replaced the confessional and instead of true forgiveness, deliverance and healing we have the victim syndrome, the band-aid of mind altering drug therapy, and no healing at all; and our world is proof of it all.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    My temperament is Mean-tone. (probably inaccurately used, but I thought it funny...)
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    One thing I want to add is that why many confessions are face-to-face these days. The priest sits next to you and acts as if he is a psychologist counseling than forgiving the sin. Especially for women it's very hard, when you don't even have an option. One time I went to confession without knowing it was face-to-face, I was so embarrased, even if the priest joked by saying that he will close his eyes. Never want to go there again.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Miacoyne:

    That is indeed one of the errors of not understanding the power of the sacrament and reducing a supernatural work of the Holy Spirit into the natural work of human striving. Psychological mentoring does not belong in the confessional. This is another reason the confessional is largely empty today. People are not interested in psychological advice. They expect to meet God and receive absolution of sin.
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    Thanks Francis for the clear explanation of the truth. Many things are very confusing without solid education of the faith.
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