mamaherrera October 18 Thanks
Posts: 21
wish me luck,. I will hear him play today!!

@mamaherrera hopefully it was an inspiring performance, although you can decline to state.

Um, what is a saxophone?
Is it... maybe... what they call each other on in Saxony?

The musical saw has likely been used in some religious context I imagine somewhere in Appalachia.

I have said that it isn't the instrument, but the talented and capable hands of the musician using the instrument. It's an operator thing.

This thread corroborates the old maxim: Bad sax often leads to violins. Badaboom.

The strumpet shall sound....

Good musicians Christians, regardless of the style, should "get it."

AURELIA

Must we bring this up? I need an AURELIA-free safe-space.

How can you KNOW empirically that a soprano tone cannot be mitigated to your liking if you haven't put skin in the game? [...] Don't proclaim something you cannot back up with experience. Such myopia is ill-considered for all arts.

I know many saxophonists on a personal level, and have played with and/or otherwise heard them play. I have, in fact, heard all of the different saxophones played by people who could do amazing things with the instruments. Perhaps if I was desperate enough, I'd consider writing for soprano-sax, but it's definitely not an instrument I want to give people an excuse to play. Like I've said before, though, I do like the sounds made by the alto- and tenor-saxes, and think they are fine instruments.

DougCowling makes an important point: there has always been some sort of instrument permitted to be used as pitch support for the singing of chant, whether that is an organ, a flute, or as he mentions the serpent, cornett, or bassoon. I would imagine that the key being that the instruments didn't drown out the voices.

Not at this moment arguing against accompanied chant, I can't help but notice the constant varieties of the rejoinder that 'if it's well done (meaning, naturally, 'the way I do it') you can't even hear it, it's not noticeable'. And yet, the proposed argument in favour of accompanying chant is that it serves (or is needed) to keep everyone on pitch. As mamaherrera says, 'you can't even hear him'. So, then what is the purpose of accompanied chant that is there to keep people on pitch who 'can't hear' the accompaniment? Rather a weak argument, isn't it. Why not just say I accompany chant just because I like accompanying chant and I think something essential is missing if there is no (theoretically hardly-if-at-all audible) accompaniment for me to enjoy - even though (theoretically) I can't tell that it's there. Alright, then, that's honest. So, at a given point in time chant came to be accompanied by this, that, and the other. At, then, whatever given point in time one chooses accompanied chant was an innovation that altered the essence of chant even more than square notes which did not convey the information offered by Carolingian notation. But never fear: it's done at Westminster Cathedral - what better pedigree excuse could one want.

Truth be known, if chant were truly 'chanted' any accompanist would have his work cut out for him to follow and keep up.

well in honesty to my surprise he plays very well and soft. with the voices u cant even hear him and yes he is alto sax. i will train him to transpose because i hate doing it .

Saxophone is still a woodwind, so it's not as loud as people think it is; it has the dynamic advantages the clarinets have. (I've had this reiterated to me many times by saxophonists.) There's exception in the extreme registers of course. And PLEASE teach him transposition (if he doesn't know it already); it's a necessary music skill that woodwind players often don't have, and will give him a massive advantage over his peers.

I can out-pianissimo any saxophone player. [...] Try teaching middle school band: your saxes will drown out everyone else from the beginning.

Perhaps I should clarify: Saxophones have the dynamic advantages the clarinets have, albeit to a lesser degree. I understand that the saxophones are naturally louder than the other woodwinds, but they are still closely related to the clarinet family, and are thus able to play very quietly without sacrificing the tone quality and/or intonation, something the double reeds and flutes cannot do nearly as well. And I have yet to be in a situation where the saxophones have ever drowned out the brass (save the horn).

Yes, transposing is a necessary skill, and if his band director is worth his salt, he already knows how to do this for his instrument. However, I suspect what you mean is how to sight-transpose and play from a concert pitch score.

I mean both, really. I wouldn't say sight-transposition is beyond an 8th-grader's reasonable capability to learn, especially not with simpler material, a quality to be found in most hymn-tunes. Obviously it would be silly to expect him to be able to do it right away, but it's certainly learn-able within a few months, especially if/when done alongside written transposition.

... and are thus able to play very quietly without sacrificing the tone quality and/or intonation, something the double reeds and flutes cannot do nearly as well.

There are many who would take exception to this assertion.

Easy-Music Theory used to have a handy-dandy cheat sheet for transposing from instrument to another. I used it quite a bit when I was helping our choir director transpose some music for an alto saxophone who played with us for a while. If its not there anymore, I'll see if i have a copy and upload it.

@ZacPB189

At this point, I have to question where you're getting your information and your level of teaching experience. Some of the things you're saying don't match up with what I've experienced and learned in my professional training as a music educator. You are missing some key pedagogical concepts such as using proper support, which for example can eliminate the pitch problems you mention. Much of how you are wording your rhetoric is in terms of absolutes, or is simply false:

Flutes don't have to work as hard to play quiet, but (their) intonation goes flat.

This is a generalization, since not all flute players are going to go flat if they play softly.

There's a point at which playing too soft causes higher overtones start to become especially prominent, which distorts the sound.

Please cite your source for this, because I've never come across this concept at all in my experience nor professional training.

I learned it in 6th- and 7th-grade by myself (admittedly out of curiosity as to why my trumpet was always in a different key than everybody else, and not practicality), and I'm not particularly gifted or talented.

But have you really tried to teach this concept to beginner players? Again, what experience do you have in the music classroom? Where have you taught, and where were you trained? I asked my colleague with 22 years of instrumental teaching experience if she thought it was feasible for 8th graders to sight transpose, and she agrees with me that it isn't. The topic of attributing one's own personal abilities or limits to others has already been addressed on this forum: just because you did it or can do it doesn't mean it's feasible for others. As for me, I checked my facts with another professional just to make sure I'm not feeding you hogwash.

I'm very fond of double reeds; they are my favorite members of the woodwind family. I'm definitely no expert, but I know enough to know that there's more effort that's put into playing quiet on an oboe or bassoon (especially in the lower register) than there is on saxophone or clarinet.

Actually, playing at the softer dynamic levels on a saxophone requires about the same effort in the lower register as for the lower register of the double reeds. In fact, it's actually easier to play softer in the lower register on the bassoon than it is in the lower register on the saxophone. I took a bassoon class during my professional musical training. The oboe and the saxophone do have similar challenges in this regard, so you are correct there. However, it is easier to play softly in the lower register of the bassoon than the lower register of the oboe because of the lower pressures required to produce a tone.

THE KEY TO PLAYING SOFTLY ON ANY WIND OR BRASS INSTRUMENT IS PROPER SUPPORT. THERE IS NO INHERENT LIMITATION FROM ANY OF THE INSTRUMENTS IN TERMS OF LACK OF DYNAMIC CONTRAST OR ABILITY TO PRODUCE SOFT TONES.

While it is true that brass players often cannot play as softly as the woodwinds, and the opposite is also true: woodwinds can generally not play as loudly as the brass, there is no reason that a brass player can't play piano, and there's no reason that a flute or clarinet player can't give you a good forte.

You claim that you are no expert, yet you are arguing with someone who is: me. I have a degree in music education, I have taught beginning instruments for more than 10 years, I have administered and run a successful band program at two schools, I have more than 10 years of experience in the band classroom teaching students from beginners to advanced high school, and I am a professional woodwind player. I have the feeling that much of what you're saying is coming from your limited experience as a band student, and a lack of professional musical training.

Of all the gin joints in all the world....kid with a sax barges into chant land, cacophony ensues.

I'm just going to say that I know band directors with decades of experience "teaching" instrumental music, but that does not make them experts on instruments other than their own.

Sure, I had to take instrumental methods, as well, to get my bachelor in music ed. degree. I also played a different instrument every year in college marching band, because I'm an oboist, and was quite good at each. I could not venture to say I am an expert and know the ups and downs of the euphonium, or all low brass based on the semester I spent playing it (no matter how well that may have been). I'm not "dissing" anyone's expertise or job... I realize that much of that sounds awfully negative.
I do, however, take issue with the various ways band directors describe the "difficult" and "easy" aspects of "playing the oboe."

I've known some excellent high school musicians. The ones who can transpose on the fly - or even at all - are exceptions, not the norm.

That being said, I'm going to agree with what MJO said about the saxophone's barely audible "accompanying." I also think that I wouldn't want to actually be able to hear a saxophone playing along with choral or chant music at Mass.

Now, that having been said, I will say that one of the highlights of midnight Christmas Mass for YEARS here in Chattanooga, was hearing Booker T. Scruggs (on his soprano sax / jazz clarinet (I never turned to look - I try my hardest to never do that)) and his "band" playing absolutely beautiful Christmas music. Midnight Mass has never been quite the same, nor as overflowing, since our previous organist died - his presence apparently being the only reason that ensemble was there (perhaps no one else has thought to invite them...).