Breaking: SSPX to accept Personal Prelature [Correction: eventually!]
  • VilyanorVilyanor
    Posts: 388
    It would appear it's finally and truly happening. We'll have to continue to see how this unfolds. Thanks be to God!

    http://sunesispress.com/2016/07/29/sspx-will-get-personal-prelature/
    Thanked by 2JonathanKK JulieColl
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,940
    I think "to" and "will" should be replaced by "would" given that the other unresolved conditions.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,157
    Yes, this interview is interesting, but the point about the proposed structure for SSPX is not an announcement of any news: it just confirms the eventual plan to be undertaken when the doctrinal discussions are completed favorably.
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  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    From Eponymous Flower blog there were these interesting remarks from Arbp. Pozzo, a translation from a Kathnet article:

    Pozzo stressed the SSPX affirms the central decisions of the Second Vatican Council (1962-1965). These included, for example, the doctrine of the sacramental nature of the episcopate, and "the doctrine of the primacy of the Pope and the College of Bishops together with his leadership." The statements of the Council on interreligious dialogue, ecumenism and religious freedom have, in the words of Archbishop, a lesser degree of binding.

    "This is not about beliefs or definitive statements, but instructions or guidance for pastoral practice," says Pozzo. The SSPX found these statements difficult; but these one can also discuss after a canonical recognition with the Society.


    This shows that the Vatican has either found, or is very near to finding, a formula for the SSPX to accept the Council in a way that is acceptable to both sides. That's why the news of the personal prelature is so interesting because it would seem that both sides have finally agreed to a way that will allow the SSPX to interpret and understand the Council according to their understanding of tradition.

    This is the real breakthrough because this has been the stumbling block for the last forty years. The canonical structure is an excellent vehicle for the SSPX to operate inside the structures of the Church, but it must be said that their license to drive that vehicle is in the process of being given to them by the Pope precisely because of this mutually agreed upon understanding of the Council that was so well articulated by Arbp. Pozzo. He is to be commended for his outstanding diplomatic, doctrinal and pastoral achievement and for the way he has obviously earned the confidence of the SSPX.

    Pope Francis is to be commended for this achievement as well as Bishop Fellay.

    The highly anticipated arrival of an approved SSPX within the official structures of the Church will give to many lay people and clergy approved options to navigate the present situation that they did not have before, and that is a tremendous blessing.

    Thanked by 4chonak HeitorCaballero CHGiffen Vilyanor
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,703
    Pope Francis will not spend more than 2 seconds thinking about the Doctrinal difficulties. My friends in Rome tell me that Pope Francis is not interested in Doctrine or Liturgy.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW JulieColl
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,916
    My chapel is usually a-buzz with all sorts of rumors about this sort of thing at coffee and doughnuts after Mass. I heard nothing today. The most exciting announcement made today by Father was his request that the congregation stop being so lazy and start singing the Ordinary.
    Thanked by 5chonak CharlesW ClergetKubisz JulieColl gregp
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    the SSPX compromises. a day of great tragedy.
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Francis, what specific compromise are you concerned about?
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    From the language in the Kathnet item, it appears that ROME is compromising.
    Thanked by 2Ben Vilyanor
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    I'd be curious what compromise you see them making Francis. I do agree with you, but from the looks of it, Rome is the one bending here.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,703
    the SSPX compromises. a day of great tragedy.


    I too suspect that the only compromise will be by Rome.

    Pope Benedict was closely involved and attached to the writings of Vatican II. Sadly some of the ideas of the Church in the modern era have gone far beyond those written in the documents of Vatican II. (Some may be correct when they assert that the documents were written with this in mind)
    For Pope Benedict the doctrinal questions were important, for Pope Francis, Vatican II is only important in the Pastoral aspects he so loves.

    @Francis As I look out I see plenty of green shoots and vigorous growth coming from what I will call 'Traditional Communities'. If I look at what we could call the 'Novus ordo communities' we see few if any green shoots, almost no vigorous growth, and plenty of decay. (I am currently in Switzerland but the U.K. is only a little better.)

    Question, Which of the two groups will have an ever increasing role in the Church over the next 50 years and onwards?
    Thanked by 2JulieColl eft94530
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Exactly, tomjaw. If the SSPX is able, Deus vult, to make a satisfactory deal with Rome that allows them to maintain their status quo and have all the necessary protections and assurances, then I certainly hope and pray they will accept the offer. The potential good that could come from a fully regularized SSPX would far outweigh the good that would come from an unregularized SSPX is how I see it. Just imagine the seismic shift that will occur once they're officially "IN". Reminds me of the children's song: "Everybody circle to the RIGHT . . ."
    Thanked by 1moderntrad
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    I predict a huge (relatively speaking) influx of trad-leaning Catholics into SSPX chapels. I'm willing to bet there are tons of people who would prefer SSPX liturgy, and have one within driving distance, but haven't wanted to attend for canonical/moral/etc. reasons.

    Thanked by 2ClergetKubisz JulieColl
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,940
    Perhaps in some places, but less so in others.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,365
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,937
    Which makes me sad insofar as Anglophone SSPX liturgy since the Nine were expelled is largely rotten.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Ben

    Rome will forever bend but it will be the SSPX who will eventually break
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    here it has been said quite plainly

    The dream is noble, because it is all to the honour of Our Lord Jesus Christ, of his Church, of his sacrifice, of Archbishop Lefebvre, of the Catholic priesthood and so on. The dream is deadly because it turns rather on the priesthood than on the Faith, and while it credits quite correctly Pope Francis and the Romans with being the holders of Church Authority, it takes no account of how far they are from holding the Catholic Faith. If Archbishop Lefebvre can be said to have saved the Catholic priesthood and Mass, that was for him only as a means of saving the Faith. The Faith is to the priesthood as end to means, and not as means to end. What would the priesthood be without the Faith? Who would believe in the Sacraments? Who would need priests?

    And as to that Faith, the present Pope and the Roman officials who hold sway around him have lost their grip on Truth as being one, objective, non-contradictory and exclusive, and therewith they have lost their grip on the true Faith, not to say, lost the true Faith. That means that if Pope Francis did indeed approve officially of the Society, it would by no means be a sign of the Society restoring the Church to sanity, but rather of the official Church absorbing the Society into its insanity.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,157
    The above quotation comes from a Williamsonite discussion forum.

    Francis, that is an insult against the Pope:
    ("the present Pope and the Roman officials ... have lost their grip on the true Faith")
    and it really takes quite a nerve for you to post it here, on the website of the CMAA, which is an explicitly Catholic organization.

    Please stop.
    Thanked by 3Andrew_Malton Spriggo Vilyanor
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    this is not a statement to insult the pope or anyone else. it is simply an observation on the state of the church which professes that doctrine and dogma must evolve aka the last few documents that have come out of Rome

    it is my own opinion that it is a compromise for the SSPX to do what it is doing

    the SSPX began its organization to hold the status quo of the RC faith. Benedict realized the importance of this and lifted the excommunication that was imposed.

    The tradition of the faith and the Latin Rite have been maintained largely because of what they suffered through. We owe them a great deal and that is why Rome wants them to be regularized. I am not convinced the time nor the reasons are pure. JMHO

    one last thing. we must hold to the faith even when a pope does questionable things.

    Here is an article that attempts to explain this delicate issue:

    http://www.onepeterfive.com/can-a-catholic-criticize-the-pope/
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    You may find the answer to your objections about the SSPX seeking reconciliation with Rome in the memo written by Fr. Franz Schmidberger, Rector of the SSPX Seminary in Zaitzkofen, in February of this year.

    Richard Chonak translated Fr. Schmidberger's memo, and it is the most profoundly charitable, high-minded and moving explanation of the spirit and mission of the SSPX I've ever read, and I strongly urge you to read it, Francis. It should go a long way towards alleviating your concerns.

    http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2016/04/the-moment-has-come-to-normalize.html#.V6aiWrgrKhc

    We cannot place human limitations on the work of the Holy Spirit, and we are obliged to acknowledge that ut unum sint was Our Lord's fervent desire for His Church. As Fr. Schmidberger correctly points out: The SSPX's situation is abnormal, and it is not good to view it as normal. Furthermore, Arbp. Lefebrve always sought a canonical solution for the Fraternity.

    The reconciliation of the SSPX may seem implausible or foolish from our point of view, but, in the designs of Providence, the normalization of the SSPX at this juncture may be exactly what is needed to effect other beneficial events in the future.

    Spiritus ubi vult spirat, et vocem eius audis sed non scis unde veniat et quo vadat.
    Thanked by 2Elmar eft94530
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    I read it. It is very charitable... just not sure where that charity is being directed. It is well written and logical. It is, however, the "other" view as you can readily see by the comments (and I read them all also).

    Plainly stated, those who compromise will always seek for others to do the same, especially those that don't. Truth be told, our conciliar church is the church of compromise and orgs like the SSPX and FSSP are not.

    If it is the Holy Spirit who is behind the regularization then I pray that it comes in the day and the hour that is in God's good time. But there is another side to the wind that blows that we must also be careful about.

    Ut jam non simus parvuli fluctuantes, et circumferamur omni vento doctrinae in nequitia hominum, in astutia ad circumventionem erroris

    Sometimes God calls men into exile (even exiled by their own - see https://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/ATHAN.HTM) so that by the exiled who remain in purity and prayer, the others will finally come to their senses, realize their error and repent and turn again to Faith.

    -/-///--//------/////-------

    Cappodocia: Saint Basil says about the year 372: "Religious people keep silence, but every blaspheming tongue is let loose. Sacred things are profaned; those of the laity who are sound in the Faith avoid the places of worship as schools of impiety, and raise their hands in solitude, with groans and tears to the Lord in Heaven." Four years after he writes: "Matters have come to this pass: the people have left their houses of prayer, and assembled in the deserts, – a pitiable sight; women and children, old men, and men otherwise infirm, wretchedly faring in the open air, amid most profuse rains and snowstorms and winds and frosts of winter; and again in summer under a scorching sun. To this they submit, because they will have no part of the wicked Arian leaven." Again: "Only one offense is now vigorously punished an accurate observance of our fathers' traditions. For this cause the pious are driven from their countries and transported into deserts."
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,703
    @Francis, Your last quote of St. Basil shows that it is nothing new, for the Church to have 'problems'. We just have the disadvantage that in this age the Pope's every word is broadcast immediately.

    Don't worry the Church will still be with us till the end of time.

    I would suggest not reading, and focusing on all the bad news.
    Thanked by 1Spriggo
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Truth be told, our conciliar church is the church of compromise and orgs like the SSPX and FSSP are not.


    Everybody wins if nobody does, right?
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    I have nothing more to offer. I am praying rosaries for the pope, the bishops and priests and our Church.

    ClergetKabisz ... not sure what your comment means.
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Thanks for the quote from St. Basil, Francis! Sounds like what the Polish Catholics in Nova Huta had to endure before their church was built.

    Re: the SSPX, it seems to me that if they are able to negotiate a sweetheart deal with Pope Francis which anticipates every possible circumstance and provides them with the best possible structure and recourse, then that might be in itself a sign of God's will that they go forward. It might even be possible that they can get a more favorable deal with the current pope than with another pope. You just never know.

    I'm not in any position to advise anyone, but in my own life, I know that sometimes your path forward is obscured and at a certain point you must make a leap of faith and trust that God will provide, knowing that you have done all you can to arrange everything according to His will. We're praying here for the leadership of the SSPX as well---in fact, my husband has been leading our family in prayer for the reconciliation with "our SSPX friends" for the past twenty-five years or so.

    The excommunications occurred the week before our wedding, and my husband, who was a former member of the SSPX and always had immense sympathy for Arbp. Lefebrve, was devastated, but he has great confidence in Bishop Fellay to make the best possible decision now.
    Thanked by 2francis Elmar
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    I would suggest not reading, and focusing on all the bad news.

    WARNING... MAJOR PURPLE

    You are absolutely right. I am too uptight. I am too focused on the basics of my Faith, reading too much catechism, too much Aquinas, going to too many TLMs and singing too much Gregorian Chant.

    I have decided to buy one of these and also the yellow CAMP ANAWANA (when a child says, "I Don't Wanna!) T-shirt one of the users is wearing.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoBLEvAQVRU
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,916
    CAMP ANAWANA


    I hold it in my heart!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-SE96Q9dDU
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,916
    On a serious note, if people want to improve relations between the Holy See and the SSPX, why not participate in this?:

  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Devil better watch out: I've got a Rosary and I know how to use it!
    Thanked by 2StimsonInRehab PolskaPiano
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,933
    I have a chotki.
    Thanked by 1Vilyanor
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,916
    All the better, Charles. You can outflank the Devil from the East. (I personally asked Bishop Fellay during the last rosary crusade if the traditional Anglican Rosary was OK. He said, "As long as it's prayer, we'll take it!")
    Thanked by 2CharlesW ClergetKubisz
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,933
    Prayer is good. I had to look up the Anglican rosary since I wasn't familiar with it. It is similar to an eastern prayer rope. I have some prayer ropes with 33 beads, some with 100 beads, and I understand 500-bead ropes are available.
  • VilyanorVilyanor
    Posts: 388
    I want a chotki. I'm not overly fond of the rosary. At least I'm in the company of BXVI and St. Thérèse.
    Thanked by 2Olivier CharlesW
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,916
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgk-lA12FBk
    Thanked by 2ClergetKubisz Vilyanor
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,933
    There is an organization, The Universal Living Rosary Association, that I do belong to. It assigns one decade to members who pray it every day. The association was started by Venerable Pauline Jaricot, who founded the Society for the Propagation of the Faith.

    Living Rosary

    I tend to get lost in a full rosary and don't get much from it. The one decade is all I do. The chotki works better for me. Different strokes.
    Thanked by 1Vilyanor
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,703
    You are absolutely right. I am too uptight. I am too focused on the basics of my Faith, reading too much catechism, too much Aquinas, going to too many TLMs and singing too much Gregorian Chant.


    @francis We have a growing number of people in our TLM community (in England) that have given up reading news sites like Rorate Caeli, they have found that it does not help their faith. I always suggest that if the news makes you angry or depressed it really is not good for you. There are far better uses of peoples time.

    I do not mind reading the bad news, stupid statements etc. They will all be gone soon... I now feel sorry for them, everything they have worked for will be gone in a few years. We have burnt their felt banners, kitchen table 'Altars', ghastly liturgical books, and we will continue to take over new places and do the same.

    I am in Switzerland at the moment and the N.O. church is dead, it produces no fruit, it is only waiting to be cast into the fire. OK the TLM communities in Switzerland are weak and growing slowly, but that will no doubt change, as it has in England.

    In England our TLM community is growing fast, this is the second year we have had 3 weddings, we now have 23 boys under the age of 13 in our congregation every Sunday...

    We have a firm foundation in 'Tradition' we can build and are building to renew the Church. As for the worst of the rupture crowd they have no foundation, and what they have built is unstable, and will surely fall down, and in many places has fallen down.
    Thanked by 4ClergetKubisz StimsonInRehab JulieColl BGP
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    tomjaw

    I appreciate your concern. It is what it is. This is the era God intended for me (us) to endure and in which to hold fast. We cannot be silent. We cannot compromise.

    We have nothing here... one church for 100 miles. Poorly catechized clergy except for a very few.

    The church is bleeding through all her wounds. I am fortunate to have a few good friends and family who know and forbear and hold one another up.

    Pray the rosary daily for the pope, bishops, priests and the entire world.

    St. Michael, defend us in battle.

    We have been instructed to catechize. (in season and out of season) [I believe the seasons may have ceased altogether]

    http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-x/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-x_enc_15041905_acerbo-nimis.html

    from paragraph 1

    The enemy has, indeed, long been prowling about the fold and attacking it with such subtle cunning that now, more than ever before, the prediction of the Apostle to the elders of the Church of Ephesus seems to be verified: "I know that . . . fierce wolves will get in among you, and will not spare the flock."[1] Those who still are zealous for the glory of God are seeking the causes and reasons for this decline in religion. Coming to a different explanation, each points out, according to his own view, a different plan for the protection and restoration of the kingdom of God on earth. But it seems to Vs, Venerable Brethren, that while we should not overlook other considerations, We are forced to agree with those who hold that the chief cause of the present indifference and, as it were, infirmity of soul, and the serious evils that result from it, is to be found above all in ignorance of things divine. This is fully in accord with what God Himself declared through the Prophet Osee: "And there is no knowledge of God in the land. Cursing and lying and killing and theft and adultery have overflowed: and blood hath touched blood. Thereafter shall the land mourn, and everyone that dwelleth in it shall languish."[2]
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    http://m.ncregister.com/daily-news/sspxs-bishop-fellay-little-by-little-rome-is-giving-us-all-we-need-for-reco
    Thanked by 2StimsonInRehab JulieColl
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Pope Francis' favorable encounter with the SSPX in the past appears to be what is driving the reconciliation forward. Apparently, he was very impressed with their pastoral style of accompaniment and wants to re-incorporate their clerical ministry into the Church, regardless of doctrinal differences.

    The Pope's favorable impression of the SSPX seems to have originated with his encounters with the SSPX in Buenos Aires. The District Superior of the SSPX South America in Argentina who "often spoke" with Cardinal Bergoglio was Fr. Christian Bouchacourt, now District Superior of France.

    He was the young celebrant in the iconic video series on YouTube of a Missa Cantata at St. Nicolas du Chardonnet. One can see his kind, paternal way with the altar servers in Part I, something I've always found very touching. (I must have watched this video 100X!) There are also videos of Fr. Bouchacourt at protests in the streets of Paris. He appears to be a dynamic, zealous, wonderful example of the Catholic priesthood, from all that I have seen. It is stunning to me that it is apparently his beneficent example and influence that may have touched then-Cardinal Bergoglio's heart and provided the impulse towards the present dialogue.

    From the interview with Bishop Fellay which Francis linked to above:
    As to the Pope’s view of the SSPX in general, Bishop Fellay said his familiarity with the SSPX in Buenos Aires helps. In fact, in his interview with La Croix, Francis said that he “often spoke” with members of the SSPX in Buenos Aires. “They greeted me, asked me on their knees for a blessing,” he said.

    The Pope sees that “we care about people,” Bishop Fellay said.

    “Certainly he doesn’t agree with us on these points on the Council which we are attacking. Definitely he doesn’t. But for him, as the doctrine is not so important — it is man, the people, who are important — there we have given enough proof that we are Catholics.”

    “He sees that we are genuine — period,” said Bishop Fellay. “He certainly sees things he would disagree with in us, things he would like to see us change, but for him, that’s not what’s important. What’s important is to love Jesus, and that’s it.”
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    I don't know if anyone has seen the conference Bishop Fellay gave last week explaining the status of the ongoing dialogue with Rome, but it was fascinating to hear more details about the personal prelature that is being offered to the SSPX.

    A transcript of Bishop Fellay's explanation of the structure as a "super diocese":

    "Rome is offering us a new body. At the head, a bishop. This bishop, chosen by the pope, with (from) three names, which a presented by the Society and taken in the Society. This bishop will have authority above (over) the priests. Above the religious who want to be members. And above the Faithful. All Sacraments, (to) the Faithful (who) will belong to this body, will have the strict right to receive all the Sacraments from priests of the Society. All Sacraments, Marriage included. The bishop will have the right to have schools, seminaries, ordinations. Even to make new religious congregations. And accept inside, other who would like to join. It is something like a super diocese. Autonomous from the local bishops. In other words, for you, no change to what you have now. The only thing, it will be with the recognition that you are Catholics.

    You can imagine that… that will create a lot of conflicts, with the local bishops. You can easily imagine that. So we have to remain prudent there. But in itself, you cannot imagine anything better, then what is offered there. And such a thing that you cannot think, that’s a trap. It’s not a trap. And if somebody is offering something like that, it can be only because he wants good to us. He wants the good of Tradition, he wants Tradition to say, spread in the Church. It is impossible to think that such a thing could be invented by enemies. The enemies have many other ways to crush us down. Not that."
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,365
    Why a personal prelature for this group? If there is a true reconciliation and the Society actually accepts that The Church and Vatican II are both legitimate, how would the Society be different from an 'ordinary' EF parish? Other than this, what sets them apart. Is it only that 'we bolted and established our own identity so we wish to remain distinct'? (By the way, there is no sarcasm here... just genuine questions.)
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,937
    They have bishops who need jurisdiction. That’s part of the problem.
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    MJO, here is another section from Bishop Fellay's talk which might clarify why the SSPX does not want to be under the jurisdiction of local bishops:

    "And I am going to end with another point, which is also of interest and that is what Rome does offer us. You know that one of our determining point is that we are not going to put ourselves under the bishops. We see what is happening with St. Peter’s (FSSP) and the others. They are totally locked. Because they are totally in the hands of the bishops. And we say no. We are not going that way."

  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,365
    Alright, but -
    (And again - this is not sarcasm)
    I'm under the impression that a bishop is who the Church (meaning, practically, the Bishop of Rome) says is a bishop. And, this group were told specifically not to consecrate bishops, which means that they are in deep disobedience and have snubbed their nose at The Church from which they now wish to be rewarded with a personal prelature.

    There are Anglican bishops and priests (lots of them) who can trace their lineages through a line of unquestionably legitimate bishops - orthodox, old Catholics, etc., even some actual Catholics, but the Church will never recognise that their orders are valid - because (when you get right down to it) Rome doesn't wish to and would find it particularly uncomfortable and vexatious to do so.

    So, what makes this Society's illicit consecrations and ordinations valid.
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,933
    There are also Western Rite Orthodox - just saying. Who says they have to stay with Rome? These days, one could make a good case for not staying.
    Thanked by 3M. Jackson Osborn JulieColl BGP
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    MJO, all wonderful questions. Here's my best attempt to answer them:

    The defining charism of the SSPX is fidelity to tradition, both in its adherence to the 1962 liturgical books, as well as its adherence and special emphasis on interpreting the Vatican Council in the light of the previous teaching and discipline. Accordingly, Bishop Fellay says that Arbp. Pozzo has told them that if necessary, they can add to their statutes that they do not have to celebrate the Novus Ordo.

    This means that Pope Francis has determined that the practices and emphases which took place after the Council as a result of certain novelties in the decree of ecumenism, as well as in the decree on religious liberty, and the chapter on collegiality found in Lumen Gentium, are merely pastoral initiatives (cf. Arbp. Pozzo, PCED) which do not pertain to the dogma of the Faith that must be believed and accepted by every Catholic.

    So, if you were to envision a parish being run where the only liturgy is celebrated is according to the 1962 liturgical books, without any of the novelties brought in by the Council as regards ecumenism, religious liberty and collegiality, and with a strict emphasis on the doctrine of the Kingship of Christ as taught in Quas Primas, I trust you can understand why our Holy Father in his benevolence has thought it prudent to give a separate structure to the SSPX where their practice of the tradition can operate, expand and flourish in harmony and peace, free from the acrimony and division which followed the implementation of the Council.

    As regards the validity of the SSPX's episcopal ordinations, validity is not dependent upon liceity.

    Finally, as regards the invalidity of Anglican orders, my understanding is that Pope Leo XIII definitively stated in Apostolicae Curae that Anglican orders are null and void. That is not because Anglican orders are illicit, but rather, because of a change in form in the Anglican ordinal which made it impossible, in the judgment of the Pope, for the Anglicans to confer a valid priesthood and episcopate.

    This, of course, is essentially different from the SSPX orders which the Church has always recognized as valid, because they are conferred with the requisite matter, form and intention.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • JonathanKKJonathanKK
    Posts: 542
    .
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,365
    It seems to me that JonathanKK does, after all, make a valid point.
    I'll have to mull it over before forming a response.
    Thanked by 2JulieColl CharlesW
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,933
    I thought you had a copyright on that dot, Jackson - and the yellow square. ;-)
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    I think Johnathan's remark is properly called a punctum saliens (salient point).
    Thanked by 2CharlesW M. Jackson Osborn
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