hymnal/missal combinations
  • JoAnna
    Posts: 29
    We are considering purchasing a hymnal instead of our current disposable (Breaking Bread). Can anyone tell me what hymnal/missal combinations are out there? Our pastor really wants the readings in the same book as the hymns if at all possible which is a good idea since we are a bilingual parish and already have 2 different books in the pews. I am aware of St. Augustine Hymnal and Book of Sacred Liturgy. Are there any others?
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,152
    There is, or used to be 'Worship' by GIA. You might check on the websites of the various publishers to see what they have.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Well, it comes as good news that Ritualsong v2 has arrived. I will be checking the contents soon.
    Thanked by 1KyleM18
  • Bobby Bolin
    Posts: 417
    One in Faith- WLP
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,152
    And then there is the St. Joseph Missal, which has some hymns in the back of the book.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,387
    Well, it comes as good news that Ritualsong v2 has arrived. I will be checking the contents soon.

    Melo, I take it that your "v2" means "version 2."

    But those people looking for RS II to be a successor to RS, rather than a "version 2," may be disappointed when they learn that nearly one half of the hymns slated for inclusion in RS II were not in RS.

    I did a comparison of the hymn section indexes for RitualSong and what was announced on the GIA website for RitualSong - Second Edition:

    Hymn section in RS: 491 entries
    Hymn section in RS II: 616 entries
    Hymns in RS that are slated for inclusion in RS II: 319
    Hymns in RS that are not (presently) slated for inclusion in RS II: 172
    Hymns slated for inclusion in RS II that are not in RS: 297

    Of course, numbers alone do not give a complete picture. Perhaps many of the hymns being deleted in RS II should be deleted. (And, in fact, I completely agree with the decision to delete more than half of these, and partially agree on some others.)

    As to the 297 additions, that's another matter entirely. I have not had the opportunity to study these. (I don't think I even have copies of many of them.) And the list may not even be finalized yet. Perhaps it was published on the GIA website to elicit feedback.

    I think that the feedback of longtime users of RitualSong - which I am not - would be especially valuable.
  • BruceL
    Posts: 1,072
    Fr. Krisman, I realize I'm probably wrong on this now, but: wasn't Worship IV supposed to supplant both Worship III AND RS? Or have I been laboring under false premises this whole time?
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,387
    BruceL, that's what my understanding was when I served on the Worship IV committee, but perhaps I was wrong. And certainly, even if I was correct in my understanding, GIA is free to reconsider the matter, as it appears they have done.

    I will tell you that I was very much surprised to read on the GIA website announcement about RS II: "Gather—Third Edition favors contemporary, piano-based repertoire while Worship— Fourth Edition is weighted in favor of hymnody and organ-based selections. Ritual Song—Second Edition is equally balanced between these two styles."

    For a long time I heard bandied about by folks at GIA that Worship 4's hymnody was 80% organ-based, and 20% piano-based, and Gather 3's hymnody was 60% piano-based and 40% organ-based. A couple of months ago I did a page-by-page accounting of the hymnody in Worship 4 and found that - by the most liberal understanding of "piano-based" - Worship 4's hymnody is actually only about 15% piano-based (about 95 of its 614 entries).

    I did a quick perusal of RS's hymnody this morning and found - again by the most liberal understanding of "piano-based" - that its hymnody is about 37% piano-based (I judged that about 180 of its 491 entries were piano-based). So the website announcement is telling us that RS II will be more like a Gather 4 than a Worship 5.

    But again, that 50/50 split could merely be a perception, with no one having done an actual count.
    Thanked by 2BruceL Heath
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,933
    It gets curiouser and curiouser.
  • JoAnna
    Posts: 29
    Coming from a Lutheran background (but now am Catholic) when I think "hymns" I think "Praise to the Lord the Almighty" or "Holy God We Praise Thy Name" not songs like "On Eagle's Wings" "The King of Glory" etc. So when you reference "hymns" in WIII or RS does that include all genres or a more limited one? For example, to me, St. Michael Hymnal, minus the few "songs" in it like "You Are Mine", I would consider to be a hymnal, whereas I would consider "Gather" to be just a hard cover songbook like Breaking Bread. Sorry, I don't know if there is a correct lingo for all this so I'm trying to clarify what you all mean. I'm hoping for more traditional but realize traditional hymnals which also include the 3-year cycle of readings might be few and far between. Thank you for your help!
    Thanked by 3CharlesW M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Padre, thanks for the brief rundown. As someone who thrives on a wide and attentive repertoire, that analysis remains good news to me.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,365
    I would recommend the Lumen Christi Hymnal over any others, except that it does not include the lectionary, which you desire. The Lumen Christi Missal would be needed to supplement the hymnal with the lectionary. But, this hymnal is the only American Catholic hymnal that I know of that has zero dross in it. It is distinguished by having a very generous portion of translated office hymns, which work well as thematic mass hymnody as well as for the office. At least get a reference copy for yourself.

    Even Worship IV, which strives (for the most part) to be a compendium of decent-to-fine hymnody has illustrated blisteringly that non-hymns about I, me, we, us, social gospel, and community are not necessarily of the 'happy-clappy' variety, but can be gussied up in respectable Long Metre and nice hymn tunes.

    Organ-Based... Piano-Based - really bizarre distinctions when one is speaking of Catholic liturgy. Leave it to our publishers to cover all these 'Bases' to satisfy their unprincipled mendacity. Your inherited Lutheran understanding of what hymnody really is is spot on.

    Nor can I believe that anyone would seriously even be opening any 'version' of RS to see what was in it. Astounding!
    Thanked by 2JoAnna rich_enough
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,387
    The genus hymn is blessed with many species,
    as hymnodists well know.
    Though many hymns are graced with rhyme and meter,
    some others are not so.
    Thanked by 4JoAnna Spriggo BruceL tomjaw
  • JoAnna
    Posts: 29
    M. Jackson Osborn, have you looked at Book of Sacred Liturgy? We have a copy of that coming to preview. It has readings included. Here is a link: http://www.ilpmusic.org/category/BSL.html. A copy of their hymnal-only, Credo, is also coming. We have preview copies of the Lumen Christi hymnal & missal (as well as several others) and like them but are still trying for one book at this point. Thankfully, we are not in a hurry so we can peruse materials thoughtfully.
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn hilluminar
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    If I was in a position to establish a program completely from scratch (say a brand-new parish in a brand-new Pugin Gothic church with 3 second acoustics, a five manual Harrison & Harrison, and a vested choir of Boys and Men in the stalls) I'd go with the Lumen Christi Missal for Mass ordinary, simple propers, and readings for the Congregation and either the Hymnal 1940, or the Hymnbook 1982 (hymns only, no Mass settings) for the Congregation; and the Graduale Triplex, and Weber and Rice propers for the Choir/Schola. And choral repertoire ranging form the Magnus Liber to MacMillan and La Rocca. But I'm not in that position.

    My parish uses the Adoremus Hymnal (first ed.), and also has a subscription to the Leaflet Missal. The music (usually only about 15 things) in the back of the Missalette is rubbish -- they even manage to screw up 'Silent Night' (and no, I'm not talking about 'Night of Silence', either) -- that we never touch. The Leaflet Missal (published by American Catholic Press) come out seasonally (Advent, Christmas, OT Winter, Lent, Easter, Pentecost (which also includes OT Summer), and OT Autumn), and is only about 1/2 inch thick in its most populated issues (Pentecost and OT Autumn), usually its a little less. It isn't great, but, from what I can tell, its relatively inexpensive. It contains all the readings for Sundays and Solemnities, and the Psalms and Alleluia Verses for weekdays, and citations for weekday Masses (usually only the Ferial readings, however). It also includes the texts for the Entrance and Communion chants from the Missal every day.

    The good thing about the Lumen Christi Hymnal is its diminutive size: the congregation book is only about 1/2 inch thick, so it isn't going to take up too much space. And this could be easily pared with the ACP Leaflet Missal and only take up a combined 1 inch (depth) of space in the hymnal rack.

    Is it the perfect solution? No. But it is a solution, none the lesse.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,933
    If I was in a position to establish a program completely from scratch (say a brand-new parish in a brand-new Pugin Gothic church with 3 second acoustics, a five manual Harrison & Harrison, and a vested choir of Boys and Men in the stalls)..


    Heck, yeah! Now you're talking!
    Thanked by 1Salieri
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,387
    ILP? Personally, I wouldn't.
    Thanked by 1BruceL
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,365
    JoAnna -
    I was unaware of the Book of Sacred Liturgy from ILP. Following the link you gave I perused it and thought it highly commendable from what I saw. I shall be getting a copy to give a more thorough assessment. One would think that certain behemoth publishers would get The Idea from the likes of this and the Lumen Christi Hymnal and follow suit. This doesn't seem to be what they wish to promote and market, even though it is in almost completely harmonious union with what is expected to be Normative in Catholic worship. Hymnals such as these are just too Catholic for 'Catholic' publishers who really don't want to touch or promote that paradigm.
  • BruceL
    Posts: 1,072
    I think ILP wants to do the right thing...just doesn't have the right editor (or isn't giving them enough authority). The concepts I've seen have potential, but just don't "gel".

    Of course (pax to those on the forum), I definitely feel this way about all Catholic offerings with the passing of Dick Proulx, who seemed to be the one person who got it almost all right.
    Thanked by 1chonak
  • JoAnna
    Posts: 29
    My one disappointment in Book of Sacred Liturgy is that they, like so many others, have taken several of the hymns down a key, really unnecessary.
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,365
    ...down a key...

    This is unfortunate. At Walsingham on the recent Assumption our dismissal hymn was 'Hail Holy Queen, Enthroned...", which, as we all know, is usually given in Bb, yielding a high note of D. For the last stanza our choirmaster improvised up to the key of C, yielding a high note of E. You should have heard our people, with one heartfelt voice, sing that high E with ease and pleasure. It's amazing what people can do that naysayers insist that they can't. These naysayer spoil sports are dead wrong all but a generous one or two per-cent of the time.

    As for 'Hail, Holy Queen' and the Lourdes Hymn, I would be happy never to hear or sing them again. They are the most absolutely more than done to death and run into the ground Marian hymns ever, in a repertory which has far better to offer. Besides that, Americans can't even sing the correct rhythmic version of the Lourdes Hymn. (I guess we have the Irish to blame for that??)
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,365
    Bruce -
    Can you be more specific about what you think doesn't 'gel' in ILP's offerings. Though I'll be ordering a copy of the hymnal, I've yet to examine them personally in detail.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,937
    Fr. Pasley’s Assumption Mass always features a lovely arrangement of “Hail Holy Queen.” Also, yes to the proper version of LOURDES, and no, no, don’t blame the Irish, who go to Lourdes in droves and know the proper tune.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • JoAnna
    Posts: 29
    M. Jackson Osborn, is this what you are referring to? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dcs6WPjZi0k. If so I'd love to know where to find music for this arrangement. I know it's off topic for this discussion so please message separately if appropriate. Thanks.
  • JoAnna
    Posts: 29
    In The Lutheran Hymnal, 1941, there were several hymns that went up to an F, and people sang with gusto anyway.
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,365
    JoAnna -
    My screen does not show the contents of whatever is supposedly in your above example - just a blank square. I have this problem with numerous similar transmissions and forum videos.

    If you are referring to what our choirmaster did for the last stanza of 'Hail, Holy Queen...', it was an improvisation, not an arrangement. Such improvistaions betwixt stanzas are often stimulating. However, transposing to different keys is not normally considered to be in the best of taste.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,387
    Sorry, but there is no one "proper" version of LOURDES HYMN. The French version is fine for the French, who often sing Latin (as in this case) as if it were modern French: a-VE, a-VE, a-Ve ma-ri-A. Such pronunciation of Latin sounds downright silly to folks who don't ordinarily acCENT fiNAL syllaBLES!
    Thanked by 4chonak CharlesW melofluent tomjaw
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,365
    Granting your point, father, I, myself, think it not at all 'downright silly' but great fun. And, further, allowing as how it is a French song, it makes unassailable sense, and even greater fun, to sing it Frenchly - don't you think?
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,937
    I mean, it is proper considering it’s sung at the sanctuary itself…
  • JoAnna
    Posts: 29
    M. Jackson Osborn - it was a link to a YouTube of Immaculate Mary. The notes say it is sung in England. It has 12 verses, and I wanted to find music for the organ arrangement and descant on the last verse.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,937
    Ask Charles Cole. The recording is of the Schola Cantorum of the Cardinal Vaughan Memorial School, from a CD they recorded. Charles was previously director there before moving to the London Oratory School. I can PM his email if you’d like.
    Thanked by 1JoAnna
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    FWIW, the Polish version, "Po górach, dolinach", retains the original French rhythm for the refrain, which is macaronic: "Ave, ave, ave Maria. Zdrowaś, zdrowaś, zdrowaś Maryja."
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • Earl_GreyEarl_Grey
    Posts: 890
    Although not a permanent missal/hymnal, you might want to give the new Pew Missal from Ignatius Press a look. They passed out samples at the Colloquium this year and I thought it was quite good for an annual publication.

    Otherwise, I'd concur that Lumen Christi series is probably the best permanent resource for the pew.
    Thanked by 2JoAnna M. Jackson Osborn
  • JoAnna
    Posts: 29
    MatthewRoth, I'd love to have Charles Cole's contact info, thank you. And Earl Grey, yes, one of our small parishes in town has the Ignatius Pew Missal. I would consider it except it's disposable. Content is good, though.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    MatthewRoth, I'd love to have Charles Cole's contact info, thank you.


    He can be reached through the NLM sidebar:

    http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org
    Thanked by 1JoAnna
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,937
    @JoAnna, I pm'd you his usual address.
    Thanked by 1JoAnna
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    LOURDES may be flexible and subject to fun, but for a more deliberative example of acceptable syllabic discretion I would advance "A treze de Maio."
    Thanked by 1chonak
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