Verse before the Gospel, Lent 5A
  • Richard R.
    Posts: 776
    In preparation for publishing my collection of Chants between the Readings, our USCCB contact is insisting I must conform to the Lectionary as it stands:

    Verse before the Gospel, Lent 5A, Jn 11: 25a, 26: "I am the resurrection and the life, says the Lord; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will never die."

    Besides being barely literate, that last phrase is clearly a corruption of the Gospel of the day that follows: "whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live..."

    My Daily Roman Missal, from Midwest Theological Forum, corrects it, thus: "whoever believes in me will never die." That is closer to the Communion Antiphon, cf. Jn 11: 26: "Everyone who lives and believes in me will not die for ever, says the Lord."

    A quick online search suggests everyone is reproducing the official text. Perhaps USCCB has, or would like to, issue a correction.
    Thanked by 1chonak
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,117
    I doubt this USCCB staff will be in any mood to touch any promulgated text with a ten-foot pole, but will insist rather grimly that everyone must go down with this ship.
    Thanked by 1BruceL
  • Richard R.
    Posts: 776
    Liam, that assumes what is in the book is what was promulgated, and is not an error. Surely, we are not above admitting and correcting errors.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,515
    I'd kind of prefer the second clause be in the subjunctive.
  • gregpgregp
    Posts: 632
    And in neither the Vulgate nor the Greek is there a temporal adverb, so that "never" or "for ever" is an editorial insertion.

    qui credit in me et si mortuus fuerit vivet

    ὁ πιστεύων εἰς ἐμὲ κἂν ἀποθάνῃ ζήσεται,
  • Fr. Jim Chepponis
    Posts: 220
    Verse before the Gospel, Lent 5A, Jn 11: 25a, 26: "I am the resurrection and the life, says the Lord; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will never die."
    What's even more confusing is that the fifth option for the verse before the Gospel for All Souls' Day (Lectionary #668) reads: "I am the resurrection and the life, says the Lord; whoever believes in me will never die." The Scripture reference there is John 11:25a, 26, the same citation for Lent 5A! I wonder why the words "even if he dies" are included for Lent 5A but not for All Souls' Day.

    I first became aware of this when I needed to revise the Gospel Acclamation verses from my "Jubilation Mass" to match the current Lectionary:
    https://www.giamusic.com/search_details.cfm?title_id=16826

    I also faced the issue when I wrote “Gospel Processional”:
    https://www.giamusic.com/search_details.cfm?title_id=8967
    Thanked by 2irishtenor BruceL
  • PLTT
    Posts: 151
    Including "even if he dies" would really make the reference more v. 25 rather than 25a.....

    I looked in copies of the lectionary from 2 different publishers (LTP and LP) for both the Sunday Lectionary, and the Weekday Lectionary [223.15 - it appears as a choice for the Lenten weekdays; 355 for Ordinary Time]. Neither have the "even if he dies" clause, in the Sunday or the weekday lectionaries.

    It is seems to be an error only in the Sunday Lectionary of the CBP version - their Weekday Lectionaries consistently print the correct text (i.e. without "even if he dies"). I can't see why the USCCB would insist that the Sunday text of that publisher is normative.... don't they have a master file somewhere?

    Besides, the Latin text reads: ".... qui credit in me non morietur in aeternum" which would seem pretty straightforward - and the same text appears elsewhere in the Lectionarium.
  • Caleferink
    Posts: 435
    I've noticed several inconsistencies between Lectionary texts that are from the same scripture. The above example is one; another glaring one to me is the translations of "Christus factus est" verse for Palm Sunday and Good Friday - the former ends "...above every name," whereas the latter ends "...every other name." In Latin they both end "...quod est super omne nomen."
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,199
    This is what happens when people are in charge of providing correct texts that have no understanding or appreciation of English (or perhaps also Latin?), let alone any sensitivity to eloquence in translation. If they were employees of any reputable publishing house, they would probably be sacked, and rightly so.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,370
    My university published a Latin-English booklet for the Ordo Missae prior to the new translation. That makes me quibble with some of the vocabulary choices, but the fact of the matter is ICEL could have done a better job even while appreciating it as an improvement. This little booklet is superb.

    This lectionary problem gives me little hope for the future of vernacular liturgy.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    #include <jn11:25.h>
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • Richard R.
    Posts: 776
    I shouldn't harp, and I know preparing an English Lectionary is a monumental task. Nevertheless...

    Sometimes it seems the committee is trying to be too clever for its own good, fussing with line breaks, indentations, and initial capitalizations (all of which MUST be reproduced exactly). So the RP for the 18th Sunday, Year B (Ps 78) includes:

    "What we have heard and know,
    and what our fathers have declared to us,
    We will declare to the generation to come
    the glorious deeds of the Lord and his strength
    and the wonders that he wrought."

    What is the dependent clause here? WLP adds a comma after the third line, which makes it marginally better. But the point is what was omitted from the original (from the same translation):

    "What we have heard and know,
        and what our fathers have declared to us,
    We will not hide from their sons;
        we will declare to the generation to come
    The glorious deeds of the Lord and his strength
        and the wonders that he wrought."

    I wonder if this attempt (possibly) to avoid the inclusivity issue has rendered a cogent passage barely intelligible.
    Thanked by 2MatthewRoth CHGiffen
  • PLTT
    Posts: 151
    Why is the text in the Catholic Book Publishing lectionary being treated as the correct one? Why not another lectionary?
  • Caleferink
    Posts: 435
    @PLTT I'm not 100% on this but I think CBP is the only authorized publisher of the current Lectionary in the United States. Perhaps when/if the bishops get around to a new/revised edition there will be the opportunity for several publishers to print it (like there is for the current Roman Missal). The translation of Scripture used in the Lectionary is governed by the USCCB and so even if there were to be multiple publishers the text and layout would be the same (again, like the Roman Missal).

    Somebody please kindly correct me if I'm wrong on this.
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