Looking for the Easter sequence (Ireland text)
  • bonniebede
    Posts: 756
    Hi ll, can anyone help me? I am looking for the Official Icel translation of the Easter season set tot he traditional gregorian melody, preferably in neumes but I will take it in modern if you have it. THanks,
    My understanding is that this below is the proper translation which must be sung (in Ireland) so other english translations are of no use T
    Thanks

    Sequence
    Christians, to the Paschal Victim
    offer sacrifice and praise.
    The sheep are ransomed by the Lamb;
    and Christ, the undefiled,
    hath sinners to his Father reconciled.
    Death with life contended:
    combat strangely ended!
    Life’s own Champion, slain,
    yet lives to reign.
    Tell us, Mary:
    say what thou didst see
    upon the way.
    The tomb the Living did enclose;
    I saw Christ’s glory as he rose!
    The angels there attesting;
    shroud with grave-clothes resting.
    Christ, my hope, has risen:
    he goes before you into Galilee.
    That Christ is truly risen
    from the dead we know.
    Victorious king, thy mercy show!
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Well, it's not on the official ICEL website, which is a little odd in my opinion.
  • Steve CollinsSteve Collins
    Posts: 1,021
    The Sequence in the New Rite is treated like just another hymn. The text given in the Lectionary is only mandatory when the Sequence is read by the Lector.
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    Is that the "official" translation? It isn't the translation in any of the missals or hymnals that I have.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    .
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    That's the one in most books that have English set to the chant, also, but not the text she's asking for.
  • rich_enough
    Posts: 1,038
    Not sure what's being asked since the translation given above doesn't fit the Gregorian melody.

    The version in By Flowing Waters (#151) is similar to that found in ryand's link above (which matches the translation on the USCCB website), but it's a better translation as far as the musical setting is concerned. And BFW has been approved for liturgical use.
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,775
    Re-con-ci-les ???
    Thanked by 1ClergetKubisz
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,164
    Maybe it is official for Ireland.
  • RevAMG
    Posts: 162
    It is my understanding that the sequence translations in use in the United States are from The Roman Missal © 1964, National Catholic Welfare Conference, Inc. I've never seen an "ICEL translation" of any of the sequences—the translations in the American Lectionary are from the '64 Roman Missal. OCP made the attached music available freely a while back.
    Thanked by 1bonniebede
  • bonniebede
    Posts: 756
    @steve in our girm the option to say the sequence is not spoken, you can sing it or omit it.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,397
    The text given by bonniebede is as in the Missal for England and Wales. I think I have heard it sung, but it is not in the limited resources I have to hand. Perhaps worth asking their liturgy office
    Thanked by 2bonniebede GerardH
  • What an ugly hodge-podge of words! Surprisingly, with some historic verb forms like 'didst' and 'hath'. Why didn't they just use the Neale translation. Oh, I know why: it isn't ugly or clumsy enough - and, IT can be sung to the historic melody.
  • Earl_GreyEarl_Grey
    Posts: 892
    The Sequence text is not contained in the Missal (at least not in the USA). It is found in the Lectionary hence the various translations. The original chant in Latin appears in the Graduale which has no official English translation. Hymnals use various translations.
    Thanked by 1bonniebede
  • bonniebede
    Posts: 756
    Thanks all for these answers, yes I had found some of those resources, and as far as I can see the text I have above is the text for ireland anyway.
    @ rich, I guess I am looking for this text put to the traditional melody with as little adaptation as possible.
  • bonniebede
    Posts: 756
    Okay heres an attempt. Could someone ho knows it please have a sing through and give me some feedback? Derisory laughter not required, thanks,
    Thanked by 1ClergetKubisz
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    The St. Isaac Jogues Missal has a "literal" translation in it - not for singing to the chant.

    My Marian Missal has a translation that could easily be sung to the chant.
    image

    Slightly different from the other popular translation set to the chant.
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  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    @Bonniebede, I think many of us have already done so.
    I'm sure we can all think of ways to "make" your translation fit - but it isn't pretty.
    Thanked by 1bonniebede
  • CCooze's offering from the St Isaac Jogues missal is the Neale translation, except for several words in the last verse. And, it can be sung very well to the historic melody.

    Bonniebede - very clever shoehorning! As I 'sang' your solution I was indeed filled with 'derisory laughter' and reminded of Cinderella's sisters trying to fit into her glass slipper. Isn't it a crime what officialdom can pawn off on us to sing (or to make it impossible to sing)!?
    Thanked by 1bonniebede
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,176
    Bonniebede, if you made that score with Gregorio, would you post the gabc here? I'd like to offer a couple of adjustments.
    Thanked by 3Ben canadash bonniebede
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    (The pictured translation isn't from the St. Isaac Jogues, but from my 1956 New Marian Missal.)

    Actually the St. Isaac Jogues "literal" translation (also the translation in the St. Edmund Campion missal (no surprise that they match)) isn't super singable:
    "To the Paschal Victim, let Christians offer the sacrifice of praise.

    The Lamb hath redeemed the sheep;
    Christ the Sinless One hath reconciled sinners to His Father.

    Death and Life contended in a wondrous encounter:
    the Prince of Life died indeed, but now reigns living.

    Tell us, Mary, what sawest thou on the way?
    I saw the sepulcher of the living Christ, I saw the glory of Him that had risen.

    I saw the angelic witnesses, the napkin and the linen cloths.
    Christ, my hope, hath risen: He shall go before you into Galilee.

    We know in truth that Christ hath risen from the dead:
    Thou, O victorious King, have mercy on us. Amen. Alleluia."


    Anyway, I'd just like to say that "I saw Christ’s glory as he rose," sounds an awful lot like they're trying to say that she actually saw Him rise. Which isn't a correct translation or in the Bible, and so isn't a proper bit of text to be singing.
    Thanked by 1bonniebede
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,176
    I'm not sure that there is an ICEL official translation; isn't the sequence in the Lectionary rather than the Roman Missal?
    Thanked by 1bonniebede
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,726
    I am so glad that we have to sing it in Latin all week!
    Thanked by 2bonniebede CCooze
  • bonniebede
    Posts: 756
    Thanks Chonak.
    I am working on two presumptions - a) I should sing the text from the approved lectionary (which is as above in my post) and b) this is the text which will be printed in the missalette for people to follow.

    Heres the GABC

  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,167
    The Sequence is not treated as a hymn: "hymns" only appear in the Mass as "other chant[s].. suited to the action", as para. 48 of the GIRM.

    The Sequence in the New Rite is treated as part of the Acclamation Before The Gospel, GIRM 62-64. Those texts are always "taken from the Lectionary.. or the Graduale", and in general texts taken from the Lectionary are not freely to be substituted or retranslated.

    The Sequence does not appear in the novus Roman Missal.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,726
    The Sequence is not treated as a hymn:


    But some books describe it as a type of Hymn so causing confusion.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,176
    Just a draft here, moving the existing notes around:

    image

    %%
    (c4) Christ(d)ians, (c) to (d) the (f) Pasch(g)al (f)Vic(e)tim(d.) *(,) off(h)er(g) sac(e)ri(g)fice(f) and (e) praise.(d.) (::)
    The (h) sheep (j) are(k) ran(h)somed (h) by (g) the (h) Lamb;(h.) (;)
    and (h) Christ, (gh) the (g) un(f)de(e)filed,(d.) (,)
    hath (f) sin(g)ners (d) to (e) his (d) Fa(c)ther (e) re(f)con(e)ciled.(d.) (::)Death (h) with (j) life (k) con(h)ten(gh)ded:(h.) (,)
    com(h)bat (g) strange(hg)ly(f) end(e)ed!(d.) (;)
    Life’s (fg) own (d) Cham(e)pion, (d) slain,(c.) yet (e) lives (f) to (e) reign.(d.) (::) Tell (a) us,(cd) Ma(f)ry:(g) say(ed..) what (c) thou (f) didst (e) see (d) up(e)on (c) the(d) way.(d.) (::)The (f) tomb (hg) the (h) Liv(f)ing (g) did (f) en(e)close;(d.) (;) I (d) saw (g) Christ’s (fg) glo(hg)ry (f) as (g) he (fe~) rose!(d.) (::) The (a) an(c)gels (d) there (f) at(g)test(e_)ing;(d.) (,)shroud (c) with (f) grave-(e) clothes (de) rest(c)ing.(d.) (::) Christ, (fh) my (g) hope, (hf) has (g) ri(fe)sen: (d.) (;) he (d) goes (gf) be(g)fore (h) you (g) in(f)to (g) Ga(f)li(e)lee.(d.) (::) That(hj) Christ(k) is (h) tru(h)ly(g) ri(h)sen(h.) (,)from (h) the (j) dead(gf) we (e) know.(d.) (;)
    Vic(c)tor(fe)ious (gh) king, (h.) (,)thy(fg) mer(f)cy (e) show!(d.) (::) A(ded)men,(cd) (,) Al(c)le(f)lú(ed~)ia.(d) (::)
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  • The 2007 USCCB document, Sing to the Lord: Music in Divine Worship, states the following about the Sequence at paragraph 166:
    The text from the Lectionary for Mass may be used, or a metrical paraphrase may be sung, provided that it is found in an approved collection of liturgical songs.
    Just FYI, of course!
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,044
    Also, I think what was meant is that it's treated like a hymn in the choice of text and music as per Fr. Chepponis's quotation.
  • bonniebede
    Posts: 756
    The 2007 USCCB document, Sing to the Lord: Music in Divine Worship, states the following about the Sequence at paragraph 166:


    below is the proper translation which must be sung (in Ireland) so other english translations are of no use


    Thankfully Sing to the Lord has nothing to do with me, or the question at hand.
  • CGM
    Posts: 690
    second draft:

    image

    %%
    (c4) Chris-(d)tians, (c) to (d) the (f) Pas-(g)chal (f)Vic-(e)tim(d.) *(,) of-(h)fer(g) sa-(e)cri-(g)fice(f) and (e) praise.(d.) (::)
    The (h) sheep (h) are(j) ran-(k)somed (h) by (g) the (h) Lamb;(h.) (;)
    and (h) Christ, (gh) the (g) un-(f)de-(e)filed,(d.) (,)
    hath (f) sin(g)ners (d) to (e) his (d) Fa(c.)ther (e) re-(f)con-(e)ciled.(d.) (::)Death (h) with (j) life (k) con-(h)ten-(gh)ded:(h.) (,)
    com-(h)bat (g) strange-(h)ly(g) end(fe)ed!(d.) (;)
    Life’s (fg) own (d) Cham-(e)pion, (d) slain,(c.) yet (e) lives (f) to (e) reign.(d.) (::) Tell (ac) us,(d) Mar-(f)y:(g) say(e.) what (d.) thou (c) didst (f) see (e) up-(d)on (e) the(c) way.(d.) (::)The (f) tomb (hg) the (h) Liv-(f)ing (g) did (f) en-(e)close;(d.) (;) I (d) saw (gf) Christ’s (g) glo(h)ry (g) as (f) he (g) rose!(fed.) (::) The (a) an-(c)gels (d) there (f) at-(g)test-(e_)ing;(d.) (,)shroud (c) with (f) grave-(e) clothes (de) rest-(c)ing.(d.) (::) Christ, (fh) my (g) hope, (hf) has (g) ri(fe)sen: (d.) (;) he (d) goes (gf) be-(g)fore (h) you (g) in-(f)to (g) Gal-(f)i-(e)lee.(d.) (::) That(h) Christ(jk) is (h) tru-(h)ly(g) ris-(h)en(h.) (,)from (h) the (j) dead(gf) we (e) know.(d.) (;)
    Vic-(c)to-(fe)rious (gh) king, (h.) (,)thy(fg) mer(f)cy (e) show!(d.) (::) A(ded)men,(cd..) (,) Al-(c)le-(f)lú-(ed~)ia.(d.) (::)

    [oh, just realized about the extra syllable on "risen" (third line from the end), so it's fixed in the gabc, but not in the pdf]
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    Thanked by 1bonniebede
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,176
    That two-note neume on "Tell" does not sound pleasant.
  • CGM
    Posts: 690
    I like two notes on "tell" because it's a verb.

    But the phrase could also be altered so that the two-notes fall on "Ma" of Mary, instead:
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    Thanked by 1bonniebede
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,176
    Here's what doesn't come out right, in my opinion.

    The Latin chant for that line has a musical accent every two beats, independent of the word accents; and you may have considered this already:

    Dic no-bis Ma-ri-a...

    If we preserve those accents and use the version above (two notes on "tell"), we get:
    Te-ell us, Ma-ry, say...

    If we adopt the version with two notes on "Ma-", the line falls this way:
    Tell us, Ma-a-ry, say...

    ...both of which are awkward. So we're compelled to move the musical accents in verse 4; but then when the melody returns in verse 6 ("The angels there..."/"Angelicos..."), the accents don't need to be moved, so it'll be inconsistent.
    Thanked by 1bonniebede
  • It's bad enough to start with.
    The more it's tinkered with the worse it gets.
    Thanked by 1Richard Mix
  • Steve CollinsSteve Collins
    Posts: 1,021
    This just proves, once again, that translations that are meant to be spoken by the Lector at the ambo are NOT appropriate to be set to music. Parts of the Mass to be sung or chanted should NOT be restricted to the translation in the Lectionary to be spoken.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,703
    trying to set Gregorian melodies to English is putting square peg in round hole. rewrite the melody to fit the English entirely or just sing the Latin. English chant is totally substandard to the GC.

    it's like, "let's paint this Van Gogh with crayons. I know we can do it! get real people. just use your time and effort to admire the real thing. why do you feel you must change what is already perfect in its own way?
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,044
    It is not impossible, but it is hard. But I would rather have Latin anyways...
    Thanked by 1francis
  • BruceL
    Posts: 1,072
    Folks...the ICET one is fine...except for their very obvious avoiding of archaic/elevated language.
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    image

    (I realize that I didn't change all the neums, but that's because I was going off of a Latin chant page to make sure everything stayed as should be.)
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  • hilluminar
    Posts: 120
    The best version of this Sequence I have ever heard was done by Dennis Fitzpatrick. (Yes, THE infamous Dennis Fitzpatrick, who was the head of FEL, "Friends of the English Liturgy".) He did a masterful job, changing the wording of the Sequence to make a great fit of the verbal and musical accents. He seemed to have a gift for this. It is done beautifully.
  • I suppose that it would be possible for some benighted soul to author a Latin version that was as awful as the English version under discussion here. And, very likely, it has been done here and there. It is really unfair to compare a horrid English version of anything with a fine Latin version of the same thing. Doing so is disingenuous, if not facetious, and betrays nothing more noble than ignorant bias. One might notice that the person responsible for the English version we are discussing is, obviously, no more literate in English than he or she is in Latin. Greater fair play from a more intelligent mind would compare the likes of J.M. Neale with the Latin. Don't we all know that the English translations of Latin that find their way into Catholic liturgical books are, most of the time, thoughtless and un-musical drivel? They are certainly no objective measure of liturgical English at its very best - for which one needs to consult The English Hymnal, or Divine Worship: The Missal, and its progenitors.

    I have always loved Latin. But these persons who seem almost to believe that God only understands Latin, and that Latin is holier than English give me second thoughts. Um, don't they realise that God really prefers Cranmerian English?
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • bonniebede
    Posts: 756
    Thanks to all who showed their thinking in adapting, it is a real education.
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    There are plenty of older missal translations that are/were fine.

    Why can't people continue use of the sequences and antiphons in Latin, and let others read the translation in their missals (especially if they aren't being "invited" or encouraged to sing, anyway, which would require giving them music), rather than trying to set other languages to the same music? People can handle Latin. And no matter how many times I've heard "but they don't speak real Spanish," the Hispanic communities still pick up and figure out the Latin more easily than many if not most.

    Incidentally, I don't see why people insist that "Gloria, Laus et honor tibi sit" means "Glory, Laud, and Honor, and Praise be to you/thee."
    Why does "laus" always = "laud and praise"? If they have to have an English setting, why not just "Glory and honor and praise/laud be to thee"? It fits the chant just fine.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,951
    I have always loved Latin. But these persons who seem almost to believe that God only understands Latin, and that Latin is holier than English give me second thoughts. Um, don't they realise that God really prefers Cranmerian English?


    Actually, He speaks Hebrew. ;-)
  • ...Hebrew. [???]

    Are you sure, Charles?
    I had thought maybe it was Old Church Slavonic.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,951
    I think Hebrew is much, much older.
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,775
    Not as old as Sumerian.
  • bonniebede
    Posts: 756
    Thanks for all the help. Sang it. It went well. Another bit of liturgy somewhat restored. Hurrah.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen