conducting polyphony
  • soli
    Posts: 95
    Good evening! I have not really conducted a choir or schola before in reality, since I have usually been at the organ console or just singing with the group after having rehearsed the music with the schola. However, I am going to make the move to try and conduct the group, since the polyphony requires more cohesiveness and expression and also the fact the we have members who don't read music or have background in this style of music. I did not study choral conducting in university, but I have been in choirs and viewed some internet resources on basic conducting skills to practice. I am wondering if there are special conducting rules/tips that apply to sacred polyphony. I would appreciate any advice! Also, sometimes if a motet is in 4/4, is it alright to conduct in in 2 if it seems right?

    Thank you in advance for any advice. May God bless you all!
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    "Also, sometimes if a motet is in 4/4, is it alright to conduct in in 2 if it seems right? "

    I think that 4/4 and 2/2 are often interchangeable

    My ideal in Renaissance music is usually 2/2, but sometimes the choir stays together in 4/4, so I "bend"
  • You will find the most difficult people to direct are the ones who read music! They will challenge your beating 2 when the time signature reads 4/4...though the rest of the choir is perfectly comfortable with wokring in 2.

    Especially on early music...modern editions that show 2/4 or 4/4 being the time signatures are only an approximation of the original scores which were barless and floated back and forth between rhythms.
  • soli
    Posts: 95
    Thank you for your comments, Jeff and Noel! I'm glad about this - it seems more natural to have it in 2 in most cases. Is conducting polyphony like any other conducting? Should the conductor keep a constant rhythm in the right hand, or does that depend on the level of your singers and what helps them most? What type of cut-off do you favour... the simple (but generally not too angular) flip of the hand or rather some sort of motion of closing the fingers? Also, when the singers are singing different words all at once, do you choose whom to help more by mouthing the words of the most difficult part (of course entries would be a given), or do you not mouth the words at all? Or.... is there another approach?

    Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience!
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    Maybe you can experiment with your group and find out which works better (and you feel more comfortable)? It seems that conductors have to modify many details according to the group and the music.
  • I find that teaching conducting requires getting a small box of wooden matches that will fit in the palm of the hand.

    Take half the matches out and light as many candles to St. Cecilia that you can....

    Then hold the box in your right hand and beat a pattern, making sure that you hear the matches rattle in the box at each beat. You will then be producing a very clear pattern that people can follow.

    To cut off, I teach people to reach up with the left hand and grab the sound, shutting it off. Holding up the palm of the left hand tells them to soften, making larger movements of the right hand influences them to sing louder.

    I see that you already know the cardinal rule to never sing. Mouthing the words, however, is very effective...EVEN IF THEY ARE NOT THE RIGHT WORDS!
  • soli
    Posts: 95
    Thank you miacoyne and frogman noel jones, for your input - it all helps so much! Thank you for the excellent idea of the matches - that is really clever and very practical (and funny!), and also for the other conducting ideas and fruits of your experience. May God bless you both!
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    You're welcome. I really liked that match idea. Anyway, one thing I have to remind myself in conducting is 'Don't Over-conduct." It just looks too desperate.
  • soli
    Posts: 95
    Good tip! ... I can see myself overdoing it:)
  • Pes
    Posts: 623
    I'm not a conductor, but I'm fascinated by it. My own exploration would be to ask why conducting would be necessary in a given circumstance. Is the choir having trouble with entrances? Rushing or dragging? Failing to observe dynamics? Personally, I would go crazy trying to keep all that together (which I guess is what great conductors actually do!), at least at first. So I have more of a question than an answer for Ancilla: is there a particular problem you think conducting could help solve? It might make sense to start there, and not try to take on too much at once. Tempo and entrances (I'm thinking simple four-part polyphony) seem like logical starting places.
  • Ancilla, a really good question; as Jeff O affirms, there is no simple answer to it, however. Musicologists and conductors rightly lean towards the duple "feel" for many documented reasons.
    Suggestion- find a recording of "Sicut Cervus (Pars Prima)" with a fairly unedited score in hand. Listen with intent to see if you can establish in your mind a pulse (ictus) that allows for the voice lines to enter and cadence accurately while maintaining the seemless, smooth legato.
    Then without the recording, think of the tenor entrance tempo in your mind, hear it. Because a somewhat accented or stronger syllable ("cer-")is on beat "4," find out whether you need to establish your conducting pulse initially in four to help your tenors for precision, then altos and maybe even to the soprano entrance.If that seems comfortable (in 4 initially), see if you can then move to the more expressive 2 pattern (and not necessarily always vertical) in a very confident, yet "relaxed" manner, using more early eye contact with sections than hand nuances for new motivic entrances and imitative entrances among the voices.
    Keep your pattern(s) always with your own physical frame clavicle to belly button, shoulder to shoulder, and as compact as necessary so that expressiveness in arsic phrases is shown more by primary hand gesture size, than second hand movements.
    Then try the same with other great chestnuts.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    Precisely my method on "Sicut," Chas.

    As to 'whether to maintain beat with the right hand,' YES! You can also mirror that with the left hand, when not using it for crescendo/diminuendo, cutoffs, etc.

    That beat-pattern discipline will serve you well if you have an accompanied piece--your organist needs that, too.
  • A point about phrasing in polyphony, if only because it took me years to learn this. Singers are not used to the way polyphony works, with each section producing its own phrasing and dynamics independent of others. They will need to develop this capacity. The director needs to encourage this. It is only in homophonic sections where all singers are doing the same thing and can thereby be conducted as a unit. Otherwise they have to act independently. In practice, this means that you cannot conduct as you would in any other form of music. Indeed, it cannot be "conducted" in the conventional sense at all.

    What polyphony needs from the conductor is a clear pitch, a confident posture, and a firm pulse so it can be internalized and reduced to the minimum necessary hand movements. Otherwise it is just starting and stopping.
  • soli
    Posts: 95
    These are all such wonderful insights and suggestions and I really appreciate your taking time to post to this thread. This will give ample direction at least for a beginning in the right direction. Otherwise, I could begin foolishly and make things worse instead of helping. Thank you very much to you all!
  • typically, instrumental conductors will use a specific beat pattern to show the meter, heavy and weak beats, etc. but I've noticed that many choral conductors simply show the pulse by beating "circles" rather than a specific pattern. many also show the shaping of the phrase and lots of other gestures that are foriegn to most instrumental conductors. as one person above mentioned, conducting polyphony is more unique because there typically isn't that "everybody do this at the same time and come in together on 1" type of thing happening, so showing the pulse and perhaps dynamics or cues to certain voices may be as much as you can do. I tend not to conduct my own group at all because I insist that they listen to each other (and me) and internalize the chant to the point where they don't need to have some one "keep time" for them . . . for polyphonic pieces I just show simple time in small circles because often times people tend to slow things down and I want to keep for the forward momentum happening.

    just my $.02
  • priorstf
    Posts: 460
    darth_linux wrote:

    ...[M]any choral conductors simply show the pulse by beating "circles" rather than a specific pattern...

    Sounds a lot like Chirobics to me!
  • soli
    Posts: 95
    All of these points are very interesting and informative, the fruit of your experience and knowledge. I will try to take these points to the practical situation at hand. The reason I think it will be good to conduct in the first place is to have more nuances and expression, which of course, as you pointed out, happens at different times in polyphony, excepting the homophonic parts that occasionally present themselves. In our case, with mostly less experienced singers, confidence in entries and some cut-offs will be a blessing and to help with the pulse. I will indeed try to help them set their internal clocks, though and learn to listen to one another. I appreciate some conducting where the conductor helps to shape the phrase by the movement of his hands. I think this will help as they develop musically to gain confidence in their musical phrasing and generally feel more comfortable in establishing their part's independence. I will give it my best shot. Thank you all, once again!
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    Best wishes!
    Most of all, enjoy your conducting. You are the only one in front of the choir who expresses the music with your body embedded in. It would be ideal to have the choir trained so well that they really don't need the director when they perform, but it's so neat to see the conductor (relaxed and doing a little dance )in front of the choir making music together as one.
  • "...[M]any choral conductors simply show the pulse by beating "circles" rather than a specific pattern..."

    As I recall (and y'all know my recollections oft wonder as they wander) from some summer sessions, that's basically how Paul Salamunovich directs chant; nothing like the arsis/thesis patterns Scott taught at intensive.
  • soli
    Posts: 95
    Thank you, Miacoyne, for your good wishes! I agree - it would be ideal to have them at the point where they don't need a director... I wonder... am I working backwards? I will see.. if they make good progress and can sing well without a conductor, I will be happy to step back into the ranks again... if I find it helps the choir musically (and keeping the girls focused!), I will continue to conduct. I will enjoy the conducting, although I will miss singing. However, as another bonus, I think that my not singing will force (in a good way) the sopranos to develop their voices more. Sometimes our young schola members just coast on the more experienced members' coat tails (which can be good for developing their musical sense) but I think it's time for them to gain their own vocal confidence... good training. They have lovely, clear voices with good tone and sound wonderful when they concentrate and project.
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    You're welcome. They need a conductor, especially in polyphony. All I was saying was that that's how much they should be rehearsed. (as you know, it doesn't happen often in real life.) Also the conductor is part of the music, even if you don't vocally sing, you ARE singing internally and with your whole body. I think they need that.
  • soli
    Posts: 95
    Very true, Miacoyne:) I agree - I think they do need one at this point anyways. And you're right, I think: conducting is singing, expressing, although in a non-vocal way. May God bless your day, Mia!
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    Thanks, and God bless all your work too. (Hope to meet you at the Colloquium?)
  • soli
    Posts: 95
    Hi Mia! Right now, I probably will not be coming to the Colloquium this summer, but I hope that our paths will cross sometime soon! May God bless you as well!