Are pews a bad idea?
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,942
    Catholics didn't need vergers in the 19th through mid-20th centuries because we had religious sisters who could manage a congregation with a simple glare from their pew.
    Thanked by 3CHGiffen Gavin Joseph Mendes
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,933
    The Episcopal cathedral here has one. They televise their services so many in town see them on the Saturday re-broadcasts. He is called by some of the more low-church Protestants, "the old f*rt with the stick." LOL.
  • johnmann
    Posts: 175
    Seeing the vergers at at my first Episcopal service was as jarring to me as the priestess.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    I suppose KofC Colour-Guard could also serve the same purpose as Vergers: and they have swords!

    (Though I prefer Vergers.)
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,933
    Our KofCs are known to tipple too often and those swords are a bit shaky in those wobbly hands.
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,942
    That's why you assign them to the earliest morning mass and pound out a very loud prelude on the organ.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,933
    That's why you assign them to the earliest morning mass and pound out a very loud prelude on the organ.


    I can hear it now. The organ is too loud...
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,942
    Has anyone made an organ transcription of Ligeti's Piano Etude No. 13, "The Devil's Staircase" (L'escalier du diable)?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,933
    I have never heard that one, Liam. I will have to look it up.

  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,464
    At a catholic church I know in a certain city, there was a near-revolt when the music director tried to remove the CUSHIONS from the pews. Can you imagine what would incur if pews were removed?
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,694
    The problem with pew cushions is that they are very enjoyable to sit on. There's a local parish here that I love to go to during the day to pray a Rosary (I kneel until I begin to get distracted, then sit until I begin to get distracted, then kneel...etc). And I have to say... those are very comfortable pews.

    I've never been to the parish for Mass, so I won't speak about the music and acoustics - but from looking around the building, it would probably have terrible acoustics with or without the cushions.
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    Seeing the vergers at at my first Episcopal service was as jarring to me as the priestess.


    I've even been to Episcopal parishes that have FEMALE USHERS.

    In true egalitarian fashion, they are just as useless as their male counterparts.
    Thanked by 3M. Jackson Osborn ryand eft94530
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,365
    I distinctly remember thinking in my youth when 'they' were debating whether to allow women on vestries (a vestry, for those Catholics who may not know, is the equivalent of a Parish Council, except that vestries have real teeth and often use them) that next they will be wanting to be priests!
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    When I see two-hundred year old redwood trees,
    I think "backyard deck" "church pews".

    EDIT:
    On second thought, make that a rank of 32' Open Wood.
    Salvage and Re-purpose the pews.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,464
    Now there's in idea! Repurpose pews to make wooden organ pipes!"
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn eft94530
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,365
    Of course, then some smart alec would come along and want to put pew pipe cushions on them!
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    Gives a new meaning to the term Rumble Seat.
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,365
    Yes, a 32 foot Rumbleflote.
    Thanked by 1Michael Mills
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,148
    Imagine this particular 32 ft Rumbleflote on the Great, pulled as part of the principal chorus together with mixture & cymbale, accompanying a strong 8 ft trompette in the pedal. Wouldn't this be an example of Plein Peu – or (not so) Plain Pew?
    Thanked by 4CharlesW M. Jackson Osborn eft94530 Michael Mills
  • JahazaJahaza
    Posts: 468
    @stimsoninrehab My question is, if there's not, erm, assigned seating space for mass, how does the procession work? Is more zig-zagging of priests and altar boys involved? Or did the faithful just know to look over their shoulder as services began? Am I missing something?

    In Russian Orthodox Churches without pews (and correspondingly in Russian Catholic Churches without pews), the faithful simply move out of the way when the ministers need to get through. For instance, the deacon walks around the interior walls of the Church to incense it and the people move out of his way while he does so and then they move back afterwards.
    Thanked by 3CHGiffen StimsonInRehab CharlesW
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,916
    As long a we're on the subject of reviving old liturgical positions, I'd like to recommend dog whipper.
    Thanked by 1Salieri
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    Where does he come in procession?
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,916
    Depends on how well behaved the altar boys are, Salieri. (Or the clergy, for that matter.)
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    No pews means no pew sheets and no pew hymnals,
    because in addition to standing you will have to hold something
    (quoting now-grown niece at age three) for a "really really long long time".
  • PaxMelodious
    Posts: 425
    What is the opposite of pews?

    Individual chairs? In most places, you have problems with meeting the fire-safety code unless they are locked together in some way - thereby removing the non-pew benefits.

    Sitting on the floor? Would be accepted better in some cultures than others - many would prefer if outdoor shoes were removed, though.

    Most people (except the infirm) stand most of the time? I'm having trouble seeing that go down well. Especially among parents with small children - how do you corral them into some sort of reasonable behaviour with no boundaries to help?

    Kneel? Ditto the issue with chairs if you use kneelers - and most bodies aren't used to that sort of posture, would have difficulty keeping it up for an hour.

    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • TCJ
    Posts: 966
    Easy solution is to remove the pews (cushions and cushioned kneelers as well) and then add a soft foamy layer to the floor so people can kneel on that instead. Problem solved!
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,942
    Listen to your acoustics evaporate, and there will still be plenty of people who can't get down or, if they can, they won't be able to get back up. And they'll never darken your doors again after they do.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • TCJ
    Posts: 966
    Are you kidding? People with kids would love it. Think of the children's Masses! The church could even sell tickets to get into the jumping palace.
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,767
    My great beef with our pews (besides having to unbolt some of them from the floor when we have larger orchestras) is the lack of sideways sight-lines at liturgies like the mandatum when a conspicuous conductor is unwished for. Does anyone know a supplier for banana-shaped choir pews, or ought I just plug the steamer in right now?
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,148
    Pews for the choir, especially in the loft, are generally disadvantageous. Chairs (good ones) are so much better. Only as many chairs as needed should be set up for a rehearsal/liturgy/service, and they may be rearranged to suit different performances circumstances. Extra chairs should be stowed away or placed at the back or off to the side. The rôle of a chorister is not the same as that of a person sitting in the congregation. By the same token, the more demanding seating requirements for choristers is not the same as that for people in the congregation.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Charles,

    Given the tradition of dividing the choir between decani and cantoris do you mean that the problem is only (or uniquely) related to choir lofts?
    Thanked by 1mmeladirectress
  • Chris_McAvoyChris_McAvoy
    Posts: 389
    To answer the question about whether I would like to remove pews or not, I vote "yes". A few on the sidds of church or choir stalls for the office are all that is needed. Sadly, I know that my wish is a pipe dream except within the Eastern Orthodox Churches, which are to be commended for upholding such a venerable practice such as standing durinv liturgy without seats.
  • Reval
    Posts: 180
    I think modern people would go along with pew removal, if they were told that standing during Mass burns more calories than sitting.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW CHGiffen
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,942
    You don't know enough modern Catholics. Most of the modern folk who might care are not at Mass - they are at the gym or running/cycling on Sunday morning.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,933
    I don't think pews are going anywhere in the west. They are entrenched now and it is too late to make that change. They wouldn't work so well in the east because the types of participation are different. I find it interesting that there is more discussion of them here than on eastern discussion forums, and would think the opposite would be true.
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    CharlesW: interesting that there is more discussion of them here

    You should appreciate it as a "Love Unity Ecumenical Spirit" Vatican II kind of thing.

    Regardless of what Adam Wood checks and reports it to be.


    Sorry i slipped into the time warp.
    I have been enjoying a recent purchase:
    http://www.amazon.com/Catholic-Faith-Louis-laRavoire-Morrow/dp/B0015MUCIM
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,933

    Sorry i slipped into the time warp.
    I have been enjoying a recent purchase:
    http://www.amazon.com/Catholic-Faith-Louis-laRavoire-Morrow/dp/B0015MUCIM


    I have that book that I bought in the 1960s. I am surprised it is still in print.
    Thanked by 1eft94530
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