You can scan the original score into Finale, then change the key signature. Finale is rather expensive, and I wouldn't rush out and buy it just for transposing music. As mjballou says, scores are often available for B-flat instruments.

Whay I don't get is this: why can't they just read like normal people? ;-)

"CommentAuthorKathy CommentTime17 minutes ago
Whay I don't get is this: why can't they just read like normal people? ;-)"

Normal? Surely you can't be referring to singers. When were they ever normal? ;-) I don't transpose either. Having only studied piano in college because they made me do it, it is a skill I never picked up. My organ teachers never emphasized it as necessary, so being naturally lazy, I didn't go there. The comment is correct that some of those instruments are much older than the piano. My friend in a symphony tells me that C trumpets have replaced the B-flat trumpets in many orchestras. But in reality, C is no more natural than any other note. It's just the center we are used to working with.

Did I say He shall feed his flock? Better make it an oboe.

Ask the trumpet player to learn the oboe.

Kathy, forgive me, some responses have provoked me into the laughing heretic's response. (I use Finale, and generally don't bother with the scanning/retrofitting option, I just enter the part in real time or with key strokes, and then use the simple transpose functions)
I say: spend tons of money- get MIDI devices (essentially digital mics) that:
a. Either attach themselves to trumpets, tubas, flutes or contrabass clarinets and which read and digitalize the note frequencies to digital info, then transmit that to a MIDI keyboard, tone generator or sound card software on a PC, and then transpose that from "C" down the whole step to "Bb." It's the world's most expensive capo.
b. Are already MIDI drivers, such as the AKAI or YAMAHA "sticks" that are keyed like flutes, recorders or saxes, and then plug them into the same keyboards, generators, sound cards and transpose thereby. Your flutist can sound like Wynton Marsalis with a push of one button!

This will stimulate the economy, by the way. I've noticed that in the UK (Via the St. Gregory Society website) that MIDI seems to be pro forma over the pond. We in the colonies should just get with the program and retrofit our trackers so that we can have E. Power Biggs' digitally play Widor postludes with a hologrammed image projected on the console bench!

Where's my Xanex?

The world's most expensive capo...

What really gets me is, what, is there some multi-national all-powerful Hornblowers Guild that gets its own personal music notation? I mean, they play notes, right? The notes could be written in their special horn way or in a normal way. So why not let's all read the same way?

All it would take is one generation starting in the sixth grade, right?

I'm obviously missing something basic and important.

Is it true that the lowest space of a treble staff sometimes represents an E-flat? How does that make it easier to press the keys and cover the holes?

I don't mind doing the work, but I really don't get it. Do's are supposed to move!

(In college I couldn't do my calculus homework because I don't believe in the calculus.)

Yeah, you're missing something, Kathy. If you see something on the page that looks like a treble clef, then the lines are E-G-B-D-F, no matter what instrument you're playing. The problem is that when you pick up a trumpet, for example, and play what you think of as a "C", the third space on the treble clef, what actually pops out of the horn is a B flat on a piano.

Now you could just as easily declare that the trumpet is right and the piano is wrong, since it's all arbitrary anyway. But most people would think that the piano is going to be declared "right", that being tuned in the key of C is "normal", and everything else is therefore assumed to be abnormal or wrong.

There ARE different clefs, though. Most people know bass and treble clefs, but there are others. The clef sign is what tells you whether it's E-G-B-D-F or G-B-D-F-A or something different. It's really the same thing as the chant clef sign moving around from one line to another, but instead they just use a whole different symbol. Oh, and the treble or bass clef also indicates what octave you're in, although there are notations that shift the octave up or down as well.

My brain hurts.

The instrument itself transposes for the player, who plays the same fingerpattern.

Oh! Got it! Thanks, Noel.

What I've understood out of this is the following: If I buzz my lips into a Bb trumpet at 440 Hz, the resultant pitch will be a B. If I produce the same pitch into a French horn, the pitch will be a D. Am I understanding this correctly?

@Gavin
possibly . . . sometimes the horn will do what it wants. It's best practice to buzz your lips at the pitch you want to play, but you can certainly buzz one frequency and get another out of the horn, because it's not only about lip frequency, but also about air speed, and where the player is focusing the column of air into the mouth piece. It's quite complicated. My Brass Tech instructor told me my trombone tone was "boxy" - I was trying to do all the right things but it takes a lot of work (just like singing or any other musical endeavor).

I have never understood why it's so difficult for Bb instrumentalists to play with a normal score of music. I started on piano/organ and picked up the euphonium in high school. It took me about 3 weeks to get used to the instrument. Perhaps my experience with music theory and transposing on the keyboard made the transition to euphonium transpositions conceptually easier. But I still can't figure out why people struggle so much with this. The first tip in mjballou's link says "practice makes perfect." Perhaps they never practiced?

Uh, yeah, Gavin, at least the first part is correct.

I don't know anything about French horns.

440 Hz=A (on piano, other C instruments)=B on B falt trumpet, etc.

If you want to tune the entire wind ensemble (I don't know much about strings) using an A (440 Hz) on piano, you say, "Concert A."

Now, for band, usually start with tuning with a concert F for the entire ensemble (make sure they warm up first, usually it is the Remington exercises or something of the sort---I was last in college band 6 years ago). Then sections: saxophones, use their F sharp (not concert F sharp). But note: if you have a B flat tenor saxophone in your group, you will have to tune him/her separately from the other saxophonists, since a tenor's F sharp (concert E) is not the same as an alto's F sharp (concert A).

You may already know (more about) all this stuff, so ignore it if you do.

For B flat trumpet, they usually tune G (their G, concert F), A, B, C (hold for a bit). I think this is the same for all brass---start with concert F, G, A, B flat (hold), and probably all winds. For french horns, I think there are two tuning slides which you have to tinker with. Idk.

For any instrument, if sharp, pull out. If flat, push in (on brass, tuning slides; on woodwinds, mouthpieces.) To make life easier, use a tuner. These days, I've never actually seen someone use a tuning fork to tune a band. Chiefly brass, but a little woodwinds, too---make sure their embouchure is set well, otherwise for saxophones and clarinets, you will get a loud squeak and for brass you will get the wrong note. Going on, if a saxophone/clarinet is squeaking, it means that their embouchure is a little loose. Get them to firm up at the mouth, and don't let them puff their cheeks, in order to get a firmer sound. They might also have to put more air into the instrument. However, putting in more air does not necessarily guarantee a firm sound if the embouchure is lousy. It is like a leaky hose: if there is a hole in the hose, then not much water will get out of the hose no matter how much is put in. (That being said, if they don't put any air into the instrument, it is guaranteed that nothing will come out.)

Don't forget to tune the timpani (if you have any in a church group). :) And I hope you don't use these in church, but bass drums need to be muffled using a towel or something.

Every evening I thank God for all the good things He has given me, including Sibelius software.

Carl D,

Thanks, I just remembered that last night!

And I was a little wrong on the clarinet/sax comment: if they are squeaking, that most likely means they are biting too hard.

I love this forum. I can disconnect for months when doing other things (like cycling in France or around the East coast of the US) then search for something I need to know now - like what will work for the trumpet player at a big, fancy wedding I'm directing next weekend - and find more answers than I can actually process. Thank you GOD for this collection of interesting, smart, funny, kind, weirdos! I always feel right at home on this forum. ;)

Hire (French) horn players. They should be able to sight-transpose with no problem. In fact, a great deal of orchestral music for horns begins with the instruction to transpose.

The horn is in F (sort of -- actually, half of it is in B flat, but that's a different story and you need not worry about it because the player will deal with it). So if the music says 'horn in D' then the horn player will transpose down a minor third. Etc. So in your case, tell them to play 'in C'. (The transposition is relative to the fundamental pitch of the instrument; you don't tell them to play in the key in which the music is written. If what is on the page 'sounds right on a piano' then tell them to play in C.)

This practice (for horns) is a relic from the days when horns had no valves and they changed keys by swapping slides ('crooks') in and out of the instrument (and before that they just had different instruments for different keys).

Some trumpets come with (or can be made to work with) slides that handle at least some transpositions -- C is the most common, I think.

Anyway, if you are working with these players regularly, you should encourage them to learn to transpose. It isn't very hard and they'll be better (and more versatile) players for it.

(I'm biased. In a previous life I was a professional horn player.)

I was a non-professional French Horn player, Michael, but my "career" came to an abrupt end when my audition for the university orchestra demonstrated that I hadn't learned to transpose. I was crushed, but they were right.

May I remind everyone that there was a 6 year hiatus between Steve Collins' remark and tomboysuze's? I do not know if the OP is still here or not.

Historically, brass instruments were made in various 'keys'. You had trumpets in Bb, A, C, D, F, etc. This was before valves. You also had clarinets in differing keys. If a piece of music is written with transposed clefs, that musician can play the Bb part, the C part, etc. without having to relearn the instrument. Note: this usually only happens on the treble clef. Bass clef instruments are not usually transposing (exception is the bass clarinet.)

I do hope that you've learned about transposing instruments in the intervening six years.

"there's no clarinet in chant"

Just parts of one: c-a--n-t

Such cant !

Wait. Isn't that what Peter asked James and John to do after the miraculous draught of fish? Clarinet?